Still cant figure out my headspace.....FL sizing Die Set-up

[Eddie Harren]

"I can say I have learned more here then I did in 70 + years of reloading .
lol. Larry"

Now that right there, is scary! Imagine an 8 year old reloading!

 

[Comrade Terry]

The only thing i cant figure out about this thread is why everyone else doesnt do the same.

Guffey is a troll. If trolls aren't fed, they go away.

 

[MoneyWaster]

FWIW: I shoot 75 gr HPBT in 223 using a fairly stiff load out of my Savage Bolt gun. I never FL size my brass (Winchester, Hornaday and Federal) only neck sizing using a Lee Ultimate die set. I never get a stiff bolt closure, don't anneal, and have cycled the brass over a dozen times. I don't have to trim cause it doesn't grow. Run out is .001 or under (I was lucky and got a good die).
And most importantly, it shoots tiny groups.

Texas10,

How far off the lands are you seating your bullets?

Regarding your tape test, I don't have any new unfired pieces of brass or loaded rounds. Could I not also do it with resized brass?

 

[fguffey]

My gauges measure thousandths of an inch, not lengths

Reloaders are infatuated with head space, I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, I do not want to know if the bolt will close on a go-gage length head space gage. Again, I am the fan of transfers and standards, reloaders believe they can measure the length of a head space gage from the datum to the head of the gage with agage that is notorious for being poorly designed. Reloaders have been using the case gage as a drop in gage for 70 +years, from the beginning the case gage was designed to measure more accurately than the ability of most reloaders to measure. L.E. Wilson wasted the paper they used for instructions; I read the instructions located a straight edge and then added the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Regarding your tape test, I don't have any new unfired pieces of brass or loaded rounds. Could I not also do it with resized brass?

Why are you using unfired brass or brass that has been sized? I want my bullets to have that jump, I want the bullet to have that running start, I also want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the distance from the lands to the bolt face. I can not do that with a new case and or a sized case, I have to use a fired case because I am the only one that wants to know the length of the chamber.

I drill out the flash hole/primer pocket to a diameter that will allow a cleaning rod to pass through it, I neck size the case because I am the only reloader that want all the bullet hold he can get and then I seat a bullet, after seating the bullet I remove the bolt then chamber the test round after seating the test round I use a cleaning rod to push the bullet out of the case and into the lands, when the bullet hits the lands I stop pushing and then remove the test case.

After removing the test case I place the test case in a shell holder, raise the ram and then adjust the seating die to the bullet. Once the seating plug has made contact with the bullet I secure the seating plug and die in the press. I know, everyone is confused but the test case transferred the dimensions of the chamber to the die, with a height gage I can measure the height of the stem above the die and then zero the indicator.
Zero? After making the adjustments my seating die is adjusted to 'zero off the lands', if I choose to seat a bullet .030" off the lands I lower the seating stem .030".

I have no ideal what the smith was thinking but I checked one rifle that had problems, I pushed the bullet out of the case before the bullet made contact with the lands. There was no fix because there were no cases long enough to move the bullet to the lands. I was asked; "How could this happen?".

F. Guffey

 

[hogpatrol]

 

[hogpatrol]

L.E. Wilson latest instructions for how to use a case gauge:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FAQ #10 - www.lewilson.com/faqs.html

The case gage is to be used with fired cases in your gun. It gives you a basis or starting point for the trimming and sizing operations.

First drop the fired case into the gage. Take a measurement on headspace. This can be done with micrometers a depth micrometer or caliper (Depending on if your case sits high or low in the gage). If your case sticks out past maximum headspace you probably have a larger then average chamber. You may still use the gage because you are using it to determine how much you are sizing.

Now once you have an initial measurement slowly dial in you full length sizer until you get a .001 to .002 drop in headspace. This will set you just behind your gun chambers headspace, giving you a more accurate shot and saving your brass by not overworking it.

Once you have sized your cases you can drop them in and set the gage on a flat surface with the head side facing down. Now you can look across the top of the gage, this gives you min/max for trim length.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way too simple. The other complicated way is better. It makes you a more sophisticated and knowledgeable reloader. I think it has something to do with the datum line off the bottom of the shoulder angular to the case body subtracted from the cartridge length added in to the SAAMI specifications plus or minus .004 and this is without using any tape or primer. Must be done with a completely stripped bolt, no trigger with bluing on all surfaces and the gun held in place in a fixture so as not to induce any forward or aft movement of either the rifle, the bolt or a properly prepared case fired in the said rifle and tumbled in a mix of crushed walnut shells, heavy sand and just a touch of lemi-shine so as to not grab any possible cross hatches in the chamber. It must move freely, preferably in a chamber that has been polished specifically with 320 grit emery cloth/paper. This has worked for me and my reloading experience goes back to 1963, far longer than most of the "experts" on here.

 

[ireload2]

guffey love you long time

@fguffey is infatuated with reloaders

 

[ireload2]

Guffey you should update your obviously backward and out of date method for use of the Wilson Gage if you really do use a Wilson gage.
Reloaders don't just believe, we actually KNOW that we can set a Hornady gage using the gunsmith chamber gage as a standard. Once the Hornady gage is set to the length of the gunsmith headspace gage the Hornady gage works fine in spite of everything that you say.... Try it so you can find out how wrong you are.

Then you will not have to continue your broken record about feeler gages.



F. Guffey[/QUOTE]

Reloaders are infatuated with head space, I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, I do not want to know if the bolt will close on a go-gage length head space gage. Again, I am the fan of transfers and standards, reloaders believe they can measure the length of a head space gage from the datum to the head of the gage with agage that is notorious for being poorly designed. Reloaders have been using the case gage as a drop in gage for 70 +years, from the beginning the case gage was designed to measure more accurately than the ability of most reloaders to measure. L.E. Wilson wasted the paper they used for instructions; I read the instructions located a straight edge and then added the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

That is a desperate attempt to appear expert and wise.

Why are you using unfired brass or brass that has been sized? I want my bullets to have that jump, I want the bullet to have that running start, I also want to know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the distance from the lands to the bolt face. I can not do that with a new case and or a sized case, I have to use a fired case because I am the only one that wants to know the length of the chamber.

I drill out the flash hole/primer pocket to a diameter that will allow a cleaning rod to pass through it, I neck size the case because I am the only reloader that want all the bullet hold he can get and then I seat a bullet, after seating the bullet I remove the bolt then chamber the test round after seating the test round I use a cleaning rod to push the bullet out of the case and into the lands, when the bullet hits the lands I stop pushing and then remove the test case.

After removing the test case I place the test case in a shell holder, raise the ram and then adjust the seating die to the bullet. Once the seating plug has made contact with the bullet I secure the seating plug and die in the press. I know, everyone is confused but the test case transferred the dimensions of the chamber to the die, with a height gage I can measure the height of the stem above the die and then zero the indicator.
Zero? After making the adjustments my seating die is adjusted to 'zero off the lands', if I choose to seat a bullet .030" off the lands I lower the seating stem .030".

I have no ideal what the smith was thinking but I checked one rifle that had problems, I pushed the bullet out of the case before the bullet made contact with the lands. There was no fix because there were no cases long enough to move the bullet to the lands. I was asked; "How could this happen?".

F. Guffey

 

[hogpatrol]

Where ARE those tools that do the job for eleven bucks? Inquiring minds need to know.

 

[KMart]

Where ARE those tools that do the job for eleven bucks? Inquiring minds need to know.

1963 prices?????

 

[Texas10]

Texas10,

How far off the lands are you seating your bullets?

Regarding your tape test, I don't have any new unfired pieces of brass or loaded rounds. Could I not also do it with resized brass?

The reason I suggested using a new cartridge is that all manufactures make their cartridges to SAMMI specs. And if you use a new cartridge for the tape test, you're basically using it as a gage to identify if your particular chamber is set up correctly. This is by no means a definitive measurement, as you are relying on cartridge instead of a precision gage, but it'll get you some useful information since you're experiencing separation. And that means for some reason, you are stretching the brass beyond it's structural limits.

If you use a FL sized cartridge, there is no way to know if that cartridge is shorter or longer than SAMMI specs unless perhaps if you buy once fired and sized brass from a commercial producer. Remember, a Stony Point or Hornaday gage is only for relative measurements, so you can't use that as a definitive measurement of meeting or exceeding SAMMI spec.

In theory, once a cartridge has been fired in your chamber, it should be perfectly sized to that chamber, and therefor there is no reason to alter its dimensions, except neck size to facilitate bullet seating. That is what is happening with MY brass in MY chamber, and MY loading procedures. My 22-250 will go several firings before I need to FL size, otherwise it is difficult to chamber and close the bolt.

You can experience case failure also by sizing too short. But the best sign that you are sizing too short is neck growth. If you have to trim .010 or more off the neck after each run through your die, you're moving way too much brass in your sizing process. If you almost never have to trim, you're dies are set up to minimum necessary sizing for reloading, the best possible.

As for jump, different bullets prefer different jumps. Sierra's and Hornaday's seem to prefer .010 to .020 jump, but what is best for you has to be determined by testing in YOUR rifle.

 

[MoneyWaster]

If you use a FL sized cartridge, there is no way to know if that cartridge is shorter or longer than SAMMI specs unless perhaps if you buy once fired and sized brass from a commercial producer. Remember, a Stony Point or Hornaday gage is only for relative measurements, so you can't use that as a definitive measurement of meeting or exceeding SAMMI spec.

I have this gauge for comparison with SAAMI specs: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/456614/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gauge-223-Remington

 

[MoneyWaster]

In theory, once a cartridge has been fired in your chamber, it should be perfectly sized to that chamber, and therefor there is no reason to alter its dimensions, except neck size to facilitate bullet seating.

One of the primary reasons for me starting the thread was the fact that I had a wide range of base to shoulder measurements from once fired brass. Ultimately that was what led me to take the longest case and bump the shoulder 0.001" with a FL die. For now I'm running with that and will see what I get upon the next firing.

 

[johnfred1965]

One of the primary reasons for me starting the thread was the fact that I had a wide range of base to shoulder measurements from once fired brass. Ultimately that was what led me to take the longest case and bump the shoulder 0.001" with a FL die. For now I'm running with that and will see what I get upon the next firing.

What part of the country are you in? Someone early on mentioned mentoring. I haven't been through all 7 pages of this thread yet, But I would say you are more confused now than when you posted it originally, I know I am! If you are close to Kentucky, PM me, I"d be glad to walk through it all and save some of that good lapua brass.

 

[Ned Ludd]

MoneyWaster - in wading through all the BS that unfortunately crept into your thread, I may have missed it. If someone else posted already the same info, my apologies.

For the Lots I have used over the years, virgin Lapua brass cartridge-base-to-shoulder (CBTS) generally runs anywhere from about 1.438" - 1.442". I have several .223 competition rifles that I shoot 80s and 90s with fairly high pressure loads. Even after multiple firings, the CBTS stays pretty constant as compared to after the 1st firing: about 1.446" to 1.450", depending on the rifle/chamber. That correlates to about a .007" to .008" increase of CBTS for fired brass over virgin.

If your cases are growing to over 1.500" on the first firing and to 1.560" or more on the second firing, something is wrong with the chamber specs. Virgin brass shouldn't be growing close to .100" on the first firing (depending on the CBTS for your specific lot of virgin Lapua brass), and almost .010" on the 2nd firing. If your chamber really allows that much growth, I seriously doubt even bumping the shoulder back only .001" to .002" once the cases have reached their maximum length like we typically try to do will solve your casehead separation issue. That is simply too much overall movement within the first couple firings, which in my mind points directly at the chamber. By the time the brass has reached its full length, the damage may have already been done. In my hands, growth of .007" - .008" on the first firing doesn't seem to hurt brass life as long as I only bump the shoulder back .001" - .002". Again depending on your virgin Lapua CBTS, you may be moving the shoulder by as much as .120" - .125" total from that of virgin brass. Are you sure those numbers are correct (i.e. do you really mean 1.451" to 1.456" on the 1st/2nd firings)? Even moving the shoulders .010" on two successive firings would be way too much IMO. What is the CBTS measurement of your virgin Lapua brass? In other words, how far in total are the shoulders moving after two firings? If your measurements are correct, I think you will find that is the likely reason for the casehead separation.