True for properly maintained closed mic systems. However, blow out the membranes in the central area and you will have problems. These systems are costly to install and maintain but such accuracy comes at a price. I love the HEXTA system for competition but it would require a guba'ment grant to put in enough targets for a National. The range where I've shot on them installed 10 at a cost that exceeded $80K.
Status of NRA rules, E-Targets, certification and records?
- Thread starter XTR
- Start date
That question I'll defer to Doug or one of the other BR shooters who were involved in the testing.
All true. It would take a club rich in funds to buy these targets or the CMP or NRA for their nationals.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
By all accounts, and reports, when they are operated correctly the closed systems do provide precision that exceeds the open mic systems and likely meets the accuracy demands of shooters who question open mic systems, and the NRA's published standards. As noted above, at 8 to 10 times the cost of the currently available open systems, and requiring more substantial hardware installation. It's not just a matter of running a few feet of cable, slapping up some core-plast, detector holders on a stable frame (or not) and calling the line hot.
That said, if they are not properly understood and maintained they don't perform at that level... been there, done that too.
That said, if they are not properly understood and maintained they don't perform at that level... been there, done that too.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I once contested a scoring call made for my target in a 300 yd match and was informed by the match director that the shot was out of the 10-ring by "the width of a red blood cell"
. The actual width of a red blood cell is approximately 6 to 8 microns, which would be roughly 0.01 mm. The human eye is capable of remarkable resolution, IF the human that owns it is willing to put forth the effort.I think this is the root of all of the above arguments on eTargets in the US.
The arguments on accuracy in all the above discussion is based on using low cost targets that were designed for personal use, using open mike systems. The accuracy has been shown to deteriorate based on environmental impacts such as changing winds (which is when you want best accuracy) quality of target frames built by members of the club or different carpentry skills, and inexperienced persons seting up. You can't just slap up some chloroplast, screw some sensors on and expect match grade accuracy.
Closed systems are built for accuracy, set up in factories with known tolerances, calibrated by people with knowledge and experience. You also buy your whole system including WiFi antennas,monitors setup and servers supplied and installed.
Accuracy in these targets costs initial outlay. Scrimping on cheaper open mike systems is doing your sport harm and costing you in the long term.
Why are we spending thousands of $$$$ on rifles, scopes, travelling to comps, spending easy $1 per shot, and still think that a target system delivered to your door for around $1k will be acceptable?
The Europeans comps don't, over here in Aus, the two or three closed systems prevail. And those clubs like mine do not see any additional costs after everything such as supplies, no longer having paid markers, and having increased range fee intake with more shooters every week.
Upgrade your targets to match the quality of the other gear you are using, or go back to manual paper targets if you can't spend the money on quality to match the precision of the gear on the line.
Medic505
Gold $$ Contributor
Excellent post, Thank You.
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
How much does it cost to shoot matches at your club with enclosed targets? Club, State, Regional, etc.
Albany Mountain
Silver $$ Contributor
I think a bunch of folks need to go back to the pits for their own sanity.
Our range fees are $15 per week. Similar to when we used to pay markers to pull targets. ($15 aus is roughly $10US)
While not a huge club, we typically have 15 to 30 shooters each week, we own 7 HEXTA and use 4 or 5 each weekend.
In Aus, we have a different course if fire. Most clubs here shoot every weekend rotating from our short range through to mid/long (each week is a different distance) We also have regional prize meetings/competitions and state nationals. Each club normally only holds one open prize meet per year... but upside is we have club competition every weekend.
Highpower-FClass
Gold $$ Contributor
Out of curiosity, what is the course of fire at each distance?
In my mind, I can’t begin to equate the target we shoot at with the value of the gear we shoot. I cringe at a target that costs several thousand dollars, especially a finicky, high maintenance, heavy and awkward one, just to try to get close to what a person can already do.
The open mike is the limit of what is arguably reasonable and I personally will tack up cardboard for practice before my own etarget of that variety, because these are honestly never worth the trouble to haul around and set up for just one person’s tests.
I can appreciate that E-Targets let us see the shot placement but I do wonder whether, in addition to cost, they actually represent less work than the pits, or just just different work, and possibly actually more work when said and done considering the expanding lists of steps to tweak these.
This type of questioning might not arise if they worked perfectly, but there is literally no one here that says they do, and it’s not just about accuracy, although that’s major, it’s about no-reads.
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Traditionally 10 plus 2 convertible sighters, history as military marksmanship shoots and dates back 100 or more years since pre WW1 so mumber of shots is lower than US. Lots more clubs are going to 10+2 and 15+2 for weekly club comps. Prize meets will. typically be 4 lots of 10+2 or 15+2 each day.
David, if you think that eTargets represent more a finicky, high maintenance, heavy and awkward system than manual marking, you are comparing use of the the wrong system.
A properly set up system, supplied and installed in full by the supplier works easily as well, with probably less trouble than arranging for paid markers, getting them to turn up each week (not missing a week because they slept in, or it's too hot, or rain is forecast) then arranging payment. The number of targets you run might be restricted by how many markers you can get to turn up. If you use competitor marking, then you have to shoot in shifts, arrange to get people back and forth to the butts (wait for that one guy that keeps going AWOL when it's time to go down and mark). It takes a lot of time out of the day. Then start thinking about all the older guys and girls or the young kids who find it hard to pull targets, the new people that really just want to shoot and not do the hard stuff. Manual targets are an obstruction to many getting into or staying in the sport.
And if you think manual targets are great, I beg to differ. I have seen loose and floppy frames, targets that wouldn't go up and down during the shoot, poor quality and slow markers with constant mistakes. You hear more comments like "examine target x" "challenge the value on target y", "range officer, can someone wake up the scorer on target z" when shooting on manuals than you hear "range officer, my shot didn't show up" IF USING A QUALITY SYSTEM designed and built for comp use.
Again, the biggest hurdle I think in the US, is the comparing of low cost personal style open mike target systems, screwed onto frames built by the local club, with computer systems installed by people of varying technical skills to manual targets, and thinking that this is going to meet the demands of a sport with such a high level of accuracy by the competitor.
There's are several closed acoustic chamber systems in use around the world that are available, and there must be some locally made versions, it's not that hard for someone to setup and build them properly.
If you used closed chamber targets in more places, there is a higher level of accuracy, and you would the have more faith and confidence in the systems than you currently have.
I agree with you about the target frames some of them that I’ve shot on has more flop in them than the ears on a blood hound.
3 years ago I was part of team of New England shooters who built a closed box E-target system. The targets used six microphones mounted inside a heavily insulated box that was covered by two 1/8 inch layers of rubber sheeting on both the front and back of the box. The purpose of the heavy insulation was to muffle the sound of incoming shots on neighboring targets so they would not be picked up by the microphones in a given target, an effect we termed fratricide.
The team included an Electrical Engineer, a high level computer programmer, an electronics fabricator and a number of others. Signals received from each target’s microphones were sent to a bridge on the target line, then sent up to a server on the firing line. Along with the server was a Raspberry miniature computer that processed the signals from each target before publishing the results on a proprietary wifi network. The published results were picked up using the Wifi browsers on the individual tablets or smart phones used by the scorer for each shooter. As you might imagine, the electronics were quite sophisticated, as was the code for the software.
The system worked quite well, especially when targets were spaced well apart from one another to limit the effects of fratricide. Careful statistical analysis of the recorded shots on the e-target as compared to actual shots on the target showed an average error of about .060 inches.
There were several drawbacks to the system. First, the individual targets were bulky to handle and very heavy. It took quite a bit of effort to set each target up before use. Second, the programmer was spending an enormous amount of time keeping a complex system up and running. Third, the cost of maintenance of the system from normal use was significant. Fourth the wholesale cost of our E-target system worked out to be well over $1000 per target.
In the end, it was much more cost efficient for the club we were working with to buy 10 ShotMarker targets, even though the ShotMarker targets are slightly less accurate than the system the team built.
Designing and building an effective, efficient E-target system is not for amateurs or the faint of heart. The difficulties involved are substantial. Development costs are also significant. Based on my experience, I do not think there will be many locally developed E-target systems.
The attached photo is of the “breadboard” target controller of the E-target system I was involved in.
Attachments
Wow, starting on the first page this topic has really evolved. As a match director the E Targets have become very popular at our range. Sure, they are not perfect, but there is very little risk compared to reward. If one follows directions with installation and calibration they will do very well. I learn something every time we set up for a match. We use personal ShotMarkers until we get club purchased markers. You'll find most root problems are in setting up. Enter the correct info on your computer, I Pad etc. Use your security settings. There are those who's fingers go where none should be. I have had the more senior shooters thankful for not having to pull pit duty. Same for new shooters. Just tell then, bring your rifle and ammo, we'll get you going. Don't worry about scoring, pits etc. You'll be squadded with experienced shooters and they'll show you the ropes. And it has worked.
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
Amen.
Thank You , good over View .
The reasons for 10+2 or 15+2 is that the Commonwealth countries usually shoots in pair2 or sometimes 3 to a target so it can be a long match with 15+2 with a pair of shooters on one target.
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