Spring back issue…I think…kind of

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Easy enough to check, if you have a piece of un annealed brass. Also, a measure of a loaded round that has "some" tension on it will be of some help. Any chance you're seating the bullet deep enough that the neck is on the ogive, where the bullet isn't full diameter? Might help to lower the bushing to as low as you can and it still barely float.

 

[243winxb]

262 bushing

I would try-
Install this bushing, with the Redding expander. Lube inside of necks. Can you feel when the expander pulls thru each neck? You should.

Set the bushing to size as much of the neck as possible.

This should provide 35 pounds of bullet hold.

If this doesnt work, brass is toast. Over annealed. Burning the 30% zinc out of the brass, not good.

 

[243winxb]

Any chance you're seating the bullet deep enough that the neck is on the ogive, where the bullet isn't full diameter?

THIS

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Another bag of Starline is 25-30$. Start over, anneal after 3rd load cycle. See if they last longer.

 

[JEFFPPC]

THIS

Lots of improperly throated rifles around IMO.

 

[357Mag]

So I had an issue today and I’m kind of at a loss. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I was reloading a powder charge test for my 6x45. I had sized all my cases (25) and had charged and seated about half when I took a break for lunch. When I came back in about an hour and a half and went back to charging and seating the first bullet just dropped in the charged case. I thought I had just missed one in sizing but none of the ones that hadn’t been charged would hold a bullet. Then I looked at the cases I had seated bullets in before lunch and I could now push the bullets further into the neck by hand with little effort. On all of them. So I started digging and measuring and now I’m not sure what to think.

Here’s the details
Starline 223 brass fired 4 times
Amp annealed every firing
Reading FL bushing die no expander
Wilson arbor seating die
I don’t clean cases…just brush the inside of neck and wipe off with a cloth.
Dwell in the die 2-3 seconds then turn case and back into die for 2-3 seconds.

Measured with my pin gauges a freshly sized neck using a 266 bushing is .241. But the cases that had sit for an hour had sprung back to .244 which seems like a ton of spring back on annealed brass. So I rechecked my Aztec settings and burned a couple more cases to verify my Aztec code. All is well there.

So I seated a bullet on another freshly sized case and after seating I could push the bullet further in by hand. Then I went to a 264 bushing giving me a .239 neck. Seated a bullet which took a little more effort on the arbor press but still could push the bullet further by hand. Went another 2k smaller. 262 bushing .237 neck and same thing could still push the bullet further by hand with only a small change in the effort it took to do so.

I initially thought because of the spring back the cases were overly work hardened but after trying progressively smaller bushing and not getting any more “neck tension” it’s like the brass is over annealed and has no elasticity.

Anyway long post and I probably missed something but I don’t really know how to proceed.

Also the bushings were measured with pin gauges and are correct ID

L —

Howdy !

How thick are your neck walls, just outta curiosity ?


Regards,
357Mag

 

[Webster]

Small cracks in the neck that you didn't see?

Something I noticed, after trimming case length look at the cut surface. You may see a very fine black line That's the beginning of a crack detected way before you see it on the side of the neck. Cannot think of any other reason for a black line across the thickness of the neck.

 

[TTE]

No valid reason to anneal every time.

IMO .... no valid reason not to

 

[DShortt]

Ya'll make my head hurt sometimes.

Do you change the air in your tires because it gets stale, too?

 

[Webster]

So I had an issue today and I’m kind of at a loss. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I was reloading a powder charge test for my 6x45. I had sized all my cases (25) and had charged and seated about half when I took a break for lunch. When I came back in about an hour and a half and went back to charging and seating the first bullet just dropped in the charged case. I thought I had just missed one in sizing but none of the ones that hadn’t been charged would hold a bullet. Then I looked at the cases I had seated bullets in before lunch and I could now push the bullets further into the neck by hand with little effort. On all of them. So I started digging and measuring and now I’m not sure what to think.

Here’s the details
Starline 223 brass fired 4 times
Amp annealed every firing
Reading FL bushing die no expander
Wilson arbor seating die
I don’t clean cases…just brush the inside of neck and wipe off with a cloth.
Dwell in the die 2-3 seconds then turn case and back into die for 2-3 seconds.

Measured with my pin gauges a freshly sized neck using a 266 bushing is .241. But the cases that had sit for an hour had sprung back to .244 which seems like a ton of spring back on annealed brass. So I rechecked my Aztec settings and burned a couple more cases to verify my Aztec code. All is well there.

So I seated a bullet on another freshly sized case and after seating I could push the bullet further in by hand. Then I went to a 264 bushing giving me a .239 neck. Seated a bullet which took a little more effort on the arbor press but still could push the bullet further by hand. Went another 2k smaller. 262 bushing .237 neck and same thing could still push the bullet further by hand with only a small change in the effort it took to do so.

I initially thought because of the spring back the cases were overly work hardened but after trying progressively smaller bushing and not getting any more “neck tension” it’s like the brass is over annealed and has no elasticity.

Anyway long post and I probably missed something but I don’t really know how to proceed.

Also the bushings were measured with pin gauges and are correct ID

You shouldn't have much springback if your annealing. The way an AMP annealer works you can not see if the neck is getting red from heat. Maybe there is a problem because you cannot calibrate the AMP electronics. The software probaly makes a few assumptions. Maybe kick it up 1-2 numbers on the code. Can you pull the case out real quick after it cycles to see if the neck is red?

 

[TTE]

Do you change the air in your tires because it gets stale, too?

Come on man ..... air does not go stale ... who are you trying to kid ?

I only change from summer air to winter air and vice versa

 

[searcher]

I have done enough annealing to know that you can over-anneal brass to the point where it almost melts - and that is not going to give you spring-back as a result of over-doing it. Not annealing enough will.

I have used both the Aztec mode (destroying sacrificial cases) to use the code generated on a lot of brass - and also used the Standard Mode codes offered up by AMP on their website. The folks at AMP strongly recommend using the Aztec codes. When I first got my AMP, I used the Standard Mode on a particular batch of brass, then subsequently burned a piece in the Aztec mode to see how different the brass came out. It was significant. The Standard Mode produced a nice-looking piece of brass with the heat coloration coming down just onto the shoulder. In Aztec Mode, that same brass did not appear to be annealed nearly as much - almost as though it had not been annealed visually (it DID get heated significantly). That is not to say the brass wasn't better done in Aztec Mode, but one does put a lot of trust that the machine is analyzing the brass and coming up with the correct code. I think it is possible that some brands of brass, due to the metallurgy may require a bit of tweaking to get them just right. I'm still learning the nuances of the machine - but if I were you, I'd try the Standard Mode code just for kicks. Your results may be very different.

 

[Homerange]

I have done enough annealing to know that you can over-anneal brass to the point where it almost melts - and that is not going to give you spring-back as a result of over-doing it. Not annealing enough will.

I have used both the Aztec mode (destroying sacrificial cases) to use the code generated on a lot of brass - and also used the Standard Mode codes offered up by AMP on their website. The folks at AMP strongly recommend using the Aztec codes. When I first got my AMP, I used the Standard Mode on a particular batch of brass, then subsequently burned a piece in the Aztec mode to see how different the brass came out. It was significant. The Standard Mode produced a nice-looking piece of brass with the heat coloration coming down just onto the shoulder. In Aztec Mode, that same brass did not appear to be annealed nearly as much - almost as though it had not been annealed visually (it DID get heated significantly). That is not to say the brass wasn't better done in Aztec Mode, but one does put a lot of trust that the machine is analyzing the brass and coming up with the correct code. I think it is possible that some brands of brass, due to the metallurgy may require a bit of tweaking to get them just right. I'm still learning the nuances of the machine - but if I were you, I'd try the Standard Mode code just for kicks. Your results may be very different.

Where I suggested trying a 35 Standard mode setting (223 Starline brass), but with these necks opened to 6mm, would you use a lesser setting to compensate for the thinner neck wall ?

Getting to learn more about the AMP.....

 

[Homerange]

Sorta answered that question looking at the AMP setting page.
Rem 223 case uses a 32 setting but the same brass necked to 6mm uses a 23 setting......