Spotting Scope Upgrade
- Thread starter Lesloan
- Start date
CatShooter
Steve3 said:
+!00
Lesloan said:
I asked because having a spotting scope alongside all of the other gear involved can result in things getting crowded. Bigger objective means bigger/heavier scope overall. Lugging stuff back and forth to the bench is a PITA, depending on one's stuff and one's physical state. I saw an older guy tear his knee up quite seriously during the gear toting phase at a sanctioned match with lots of people going to and fro to get the shooting done on schedule. So, +1 to the merits of the more compact scope in such situation. The Nikon Fieldscope (60mm) used to be considered an excellent, reasonably-priced alternative. IIRC, its only demerit, which may have been fixed in a subsequent release, was that it wasn't waterproof, merely water-resistant. Maybe try eBay or one of the birdwatcher/astronomical forums?
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I asked because having a spotting scope alongside all of the other gear involved can result in things getting crowded. Bigger objective means bigger/heavier scope overall. Lugging stuff back and forth to the bench is a PITA, depending on one's stuff and one's physical state. I saw an older guy tear his knee up quite seriously during the gear toting phase at a sanctioned match with lots of people going to and fro to get the shooting done on schedule. So, +1 to the merits of the more compact scope in such situation. The Nikon Fieldscope (60mm) used to be considered an excellent, reasonably-priced alternative. IIRC, its only demerit, which may have been fixed in a subsequent release, was that it wasn't waterproof, merely water-resistant. Maybe try eBay or one of the birdwatcher/astronomical forums?
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Size and weight are not a problem. I back my SUV up to just a few feet from the bench. If I bought the biggest & baddest spotter in the world, its weight would pale into insignificance compared to my rest & rear bag, which between them probably total 30 lbs. ;D
That said, I'm starting to consider the smaller high quality spotters, 'cuz the more I dig into it the more it looks like I won't be giving up anything. Current candidates are the 65mm Vortex Viper HD, the Kowa TSN-661 and the Celestron Regal. I certainly appreciate the merits of good glass--that's why I want to upgrade, after all--but economics matter too. And I'm looking everywhere I can think of for the best buy. It looks like Amazon.com is as good as anybody, better'n most. So far I haven't seen any bargains on eBay.
I asked because having a spotting scope alongside all of the other gear involved can result in things getting crowded. Bigger objective means bigger/heavier scope overall. Lugging stuff back and forth to the bench is a PITA, depending on one's stuff and one's physical state. I saw an older guy tear his knee up quite seriously during the gear toting phase at a sanctioned match with lots of people going to and fro to get the shooting done on schedule. So, +1 to the merits of the more compact scope in such situation. The Nikon Fieldscope (60mm) used to be considered an excellent, reasonably-priced alternative. IIRC, its only demerit, which may have been fixed in a subsequent release, was that it wasn't waterproof, merely water-resistant. Maybe try eBay or one of the birdwatcher/astronomical forums?
[/quote]
Size and weight are not a problem. I back my SUV up to just a few feet from the bench. If I bought the biggest & baddest spotter in the world, its weight would pale into insignificance compared to my rest & rear bag, which between them probably total 30 lbs. ;D
That said, I'm starting to consider the smaller high quality spotters, 'cuz the more I dig into it the more it looks like I won't be giving up anything. Current candidates are the 65mm Vortex Viper HD, the Kowa TSN-661 and the Celestron Regal. I certainly appreciate the merits of good glass--that's why I want to upgrade, after all--but economics matter too. And I'm looking everywhere I can think of for the best buy. It looks like Amazon.com is as good as anybody, better'n most. So far I haven't seen any bargains on eBay.
I've got two spotters - an old Tasco World Class 25x60, and Kowa 661 w/25x LER eyepiece. Shooting XC & LR prone HP, the Kowa is more than adequate, although I think it's sometimes easier to pick up the mirage (when you're looking for any & all available clues as to what the wind's doing) with the bigger Kowas than it is with my 661. Several of my friends have the 82mm Kowas, so I've spent considerable time behind them, as well as several years of using my 661.
The reason I mentioned having the old Tasco (bought it in '86 IIRC) is that I recently did a side-by-side comparison between it & my Kowa on steel targets at 600yds. I was somewhat surprised to find that there was very little difference between the two - believe it or not, to my 62yr old eyes, the Tasco had a slight edge in clarity & ease of focusing.
Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised - most shooters I've talked optics with over the years agree that the main reason HP shooters buy Kowas instead of other brands was because of Kowa's LER (long eye relief) eyepieces, not optical quality. IOW, there are probably a goodly number of spotters in the same price range as my Kowa 661 that have better resolution/clarity.
I do a lot of load testing at 600 & 1000yds on painted steel targets. Even when mirage isn't a factor, I have a tough time spotting hits at 1000 with anything smaller/lighter than 7mm 175-180gr bullets with either the Tasco or Kowa. Neither of these scopes have any HD elements, so naturally, I was wondering about trying a spotter with some HD glass. Read a bunch of reviews, and had narrowed my choices down to the 65mm Celestron Regal M2 or 80mm Celestron Regal M2 27x LER. Both have HD objectives; the 65mm lists for around $500, while the 80mm LER is $650. The 65mm has a 16-48x zoom eyepiece, while the 80's LER is fixed 27x. If the 80s fixed power 27x eyepiece is indeed superior to the 65's zoom, then it's probably worth the extra $150. If not, I'd tend to lean towards the slightly smaller & lighter 65mm. Only way to make the best choice for my use would be to do a side-by-side with both on the range. Wouldn't it be great if we could easily arrange for such comparisons?
The reason I mentioned having the old Tasco (bought it in '86 IIRC) is that I recently did a side-by-side comparison between it & my Kowa on steel targets at 600yds. I was somewhat surprised to find that there was very little difference between the two - believe it or not, to my 62yr old eyes, the Tasco had a slight edge in clarity & ease of focusing.
Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised - most shooters I've talked optics with over the years agree that the main reason HP shooters buy Kowas instead of other brands was because of Kowa's LER (long eye relief) eyepieces, not optical quality. IOW, there are probably a goodly number of spotters in the same price range as my Kowa 661 that have better resolution/clarity.
I do a lot of load testing at 600 & 1000yds on painted steel targets. Even when mirage isn't a factor, I have a tough time spotting hits at 1000 with anything smaller/lighter than 7mm 175-180gr bullets with either the Tasco or Kowa. Neither of these scopes have any HD elements, so naturally, I was wondering about trying a spotter with some HD glass. Read a bunch of reviews, and had narrowed my choices down to the 65mm Celestron Regal M2 or 80mm Celestron Regal M2 27x LER. Both have HD objectives; the 65mm lists for around $500, while the 80mm LER is $650. The 65mm has a 16-48x zoom eyepiece, while the 80's LER is fixed 27x. If the 80s fixed power 27x eyepiece is indeed superior to the 65's zoom, then it's probably worth the extra $150. If not, I'd tend to lean towards the slightly smaller & lighter 65mm. Only way to make the best choice for my use would be to do a side-by-side with both on the range. Wouldn't it be great if we could easily arrange for such comparisons?
Wouldn't it just! I don't really have access to any of these scopes. My only experience with Kowa was some years back, with an 80-82mm Kowa (don't recall the model) with the 27x LER eyepiece. I was overwhelmed by the eye relief and the bright image. Brilliant! But I was spotting a CF metallic silhouette match, where you either hit the target or miss it. No chance to evaluate resolution at long range. One thing that really got my attention besides eye relief, though, was that it was the first time I could actually see the bullets in flight. I hadn't yet tried bench rest, and the only time before this that I could see projectiles in flight was 105mm howitzer rounds firing high angle. Since then I've learned that seeing bullets in flight is no great trick, at least with .22LR looking thru a decent scope of 24x or more. Not much luck seeing .223's in flight, even with a good 36x.
I appreciate your input more than you know. I've vacillated all over the place over (1) which scope to buy, and (2) whether to even make the upgrade at all. For benchrest, at least at my club level, eye relief is not really that important. Our matches are not timed, so there's plenty of time to look thru the spotting scope. What matters most, I think, is magnification and resolution. Mostly the latter. My Konus works just fine at less than 200 yds on a bright day without too much mirage. And it's great for spotting .22 holes in the white on almost any day; again, at 200 yds or less. It starts getting tricky on overcast days, with .22's in the black. Sometimes I think I'm doing just fine, then get a nasty surprise or two when I retrieve my target.
So given these considerations, I think I'm going to go with the 65mm Celestron Regal. The Vortex Viper HD is another contender, but from most of the reviews I see that these 2 scopes are on pretty much a par, optically, and the Celestron is $200 cheaper.
I do appreciate the info. Thanks again! For that matter, many thanks to all who replied.
I appreciate your input more than you know. I've vacillated all over the place over (1) which scope to buy, and (2) whether to even make the upgrade at all. For benchrest, at least at my club level, eye relief is not really that important. Our matches are not timed, so there's plenty of time to look thru the spotting scope. What matters most, I think, is magnification and resolution. Mostly the latter. My Konus works just fine at less than 200 yds on a bright day without too much mirage. And it's great for spotting .22 holes in the white on almost any day; again, at 200 yds or less. It starts getting tricky on overcast days, with .22's in the black. Sometimes I think I'm doing just fine, then get a nasty surprise or two when I retrieve my target.
So given these considerations, I think I'm going to go with the 65mm Celestron Regal. The Vortex Viper HD is another contender, but from most of the reviews I see that these 2 scopes are on pretty much a par, optically, and the Celestron is $200 cheaper.
I do appreciate the info. Thanks again! For that matter, many thanks to all who replied.
If you go ahead with the purchase of the 65mm Regal M2, I'd like to hear your impressions of it. One of the reviewers had been able to personally compare the 65mm & 80mm M2s, and he was very much convinced that the 65 was every bit as good as the 80.
flatlander said:
I finally did buy the 65mm Celestron Regal M2, and am very pleased with it; so far, anyway. I used it the other day to spot .17 cal. holes in the black at 100 yds, and they were very easy to see. Haven't yet tried it on an overcast day or at longer distances, except an egg shoot at 200 yds where it performed very well indeed till one of my shooting buds hit the perch & knocked all the eggs to the ground. Who saw that happening?
The scope is very bright, sharp and clear, with exceptional resolution and contrast, and no visible color fringing. I seriously doubt the 80mm version would be better, or that I'd be able to tell if it is. I'm really glad I took the plunge. The more I use this spotter the better I like it.
The only improvement I'd like to see is more eye relief. As with every other spotter I've ever used with the zoom eyepiece, you do lose a lot of the field of view at maximum power when wearing glasses. No problem seeing the whole field without specs. Celestron does offer a long eye relief eyepiece for this scope and I'm tempted to buy one. I'd really like, though, to hear any comments from anybody who has used one before splurging. Is it worth buying?
IMO, long eye relief is worth the cost. The best upgrade I made to my Pentax PF80ED was to buy a fixed power, wider FOV, better LER eyepiece to supplement that 20-60x that came with the scope. The latter now sits, because FOV and LER more than make up for higher magnification for my purposes.
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I have been looking at Kowa scopes for some time and after reading about the Celestron 80 with the 27 LER it sounds tempting, especially the price and the reviews. I have had my heart set on the Kowa TSN-82 however one can get the Celestron Regal 80 with 27 LER for 649.99 including the stay on cover, leaving some cash for other projects good scope stand and head/etc..... The eye relief on the Regal is reportedly 32mm which is the same as the Kowa 25 LER eyepiece on an 82 , which would be great for a ground scope while shooting F-Class. Is there anyone out there sorry about their Celestron Regal purchase? I know the "pay once cry once" saying and that was the plan with the TSN-82 which would run around 900 plus change for the body and LER eyepiece and another 130 for the Kowa cover, however if the Regal is really that good for 650 bucks why not go that direction?
Unfortunately as with all optics, be it rifle scopes, spotting scopes, binoculars, etc. The old adage "You get what you pay for." is all to true.
If you are trying to see .22 or 6mm bullet holes most of the time at 500,600, or more yards it's pretty apparant you have to spend the bucks.
My current personal favorite is a Kowa 884 with the new 25-60 wide angle eyepiece. Right now B&H Photo and Eagle Optics have the combo for $2750.00 since they did a special buy but am told when they are gone the price goes back up again.
Danny
If you are trying to see .22 or 6mm bullet holes most of the time at 500,600, or more yards it's pretty apparant you have to spend the bucks.
My current personal favorite is a Kowa 884 with the new 25-60 wide angle eyepiece. Right now B&H Photo and Eagle Optics have the combo for $2750.00 since they did a special buy but am told when they are gone the price goes back up again.
Danny
Danny, Isn't it amazing how much extra ED/HD lens elements add to the price of optics? I've scored/spotted for several friends during HP & silhouette matches using their Kowa 82mm scopes, but never one with HD glass. Still feel they're superior to my own 661, but not enough better to be worth the extra cost. Would really like to have the opportunity to do a side-by-side with my 661 & a 663 with PFC lens, but at over $1400, it'd have to be a LOT better for it to be possible for me to justify the expense of an upgrade.
Lesloan, Glad to hear that you're pleased with your 65mm Regal - I'm still looking at making the purchase of one myself - someday. I seriously considered jumping on a used Kowa 663 that was offered on another forum for $600 shipped - but as usual with a deal like that, you snooze, you lose, and that's what happened.
Lesloan, Glad to hear that you're pleased with your 65mm Regal - I'm still looking at making the purchase of one myself - someday. I seriously considered jumping on a used Kowa 663 that was offered on another forum for $600 shipped - but as usual with a deal like that, you snooze, you lose, and that's what happened.
dear LesLoan;
While I am late joining the discussion I have the 15x45x65 konus and the 20x60x100 konus.
I have been dreaming about a kowa for years but basic necessities like dependable transportation to work and daughters college education have impacted my finances.
I shoot rimfire benchrest out to 300 yards, highpower rifle to 600 yards, and sometimes get to play on the 1000 yard range. during my competitions I take every opportunity to peer through every spotter I can and quickly determined a couple of basic facts about optics.
First is that Konus is close to or at the top of the quality of image against the price curve. Celestron is a very very very close second.
Second thing is that Kowa is the top quality you can get without price being a factor. Swarovski comes in a close second and is top dog if your comparing quality of image against spotter weight.
As far as I am concerned, upgrading from a konus to a intermediate scope does not make sense.
Upgrading to a kowa or Swarovski will kill you financially, but you will have a smile on your face.
Regards,
Crankster
While I am late joining the discussion I have the 15x45x65 konus and the 20x60x100 konus.
I have been dreaming about a kowa for years but basic necessities like dependable transportation to work and daughters college education have impacted my finances.
I shoot rimfire benchrest out to 300 yards, highpower rifle to 600 yards, and sometimes get to play on the 1000 yard range. during my competitions I take every opportunity to peer through every spotter I can and quickly determined a couple of basic facts about optics.
First is that Konus is close to or at the top of the quality of image against the price curve. Celestron is a very very very close second.
Second thing is that Kowa is the top quality you can get without price being a factor. Swarovski comes in a close second and is top dog if your comparing quality of image against spotter weight.
As far as I am concerned, upgrading from a konus to a intermediate scope does not make sense.
Upgrading to a kowa or Swarovski will kill you financially, but you will have a smile on your face.
Regards,
Crankster
stool
who do you think makes the celestron scopes ??
i too have owned a few spotting scopes.
konus is a lot of POWER for the money, but it is not in the same class as the others..not at all.
jump to ed glass and you have made a big step.
a celestron regal with ed glass, in any size is a very good scope
i sold my konus 100 for my celestron regal...i did not go backwards.
while they are very good scopes.....they are not top end by a mile,
they are just where i decided to put my money.
i too have owned a few spotting scopes.
konus is a lot of POWER for the money, but it is not in the same class as the others..not at all.
jump to ed glass and you have made a big step.
a celestron regal with ed glass, in any size is a very good scope
i sold my konus 100 for my celestron regal...i did not go backwards.
while they are very good scopes.....they are not top end by a mile,
they are just where i decided to put my money.
crankythunder said:
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
Lesloan said:
If you can find one, the Kowa TSN-1 is a rugged, dependable, quality scope. With the LER 25X eyepiece they can be had for around $450.
The trouble is finding one for sale. They haven't been made in some time now and most folks that own them, myself included, won't part with them.
However, they do show up on ebay every now and then.
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