I would like to have a .223...for both deer and Varmints. My first question is, can a Sporter be as accurate as a rifle with a heavy barrel? ,,and if so,can you suggest a particular brand and model? Thanks
Sporters
- Thread starter scattergun2570
- Start date
I'd say yes for cold bore,first shots......no,on extended strings.
So,you test and find out what that particular barrel/rig likes and what it doesn't.We have a range right out the shop door.Years ago I used to shoot groups with hunting rigs that amounted to;one shot a day,rain or shine,for 10 consecutive days.Barrel profile wasn't as important as quality bedding,load development.
Nowadays,I shoot sporters a little different.Working on reading conditions,and firing 5 shots as fast as practical.Running rounds up through the mag.....put the rig away.Again,squaring away the basics(bed,bore,load),I can rip some bragging groups off pretty routinely.
Any more than 5 shot strings and without major cooldowns, sporters just ain't gonna like it.They generally SUCK riding bags,thin roundy round forearms in any moderate recoiling load sees "measurable" torque.Meaning,they squirm in a conventional bag setup.I use "buds bags" and they still are a handful.
So,you test and find out what that particular barrel/rig likes and what it doesn't.We have a range right out the shop door.Years ago I used to shoot groups with hunting rigs that amounted to;one shot a day,rain or shine,for 10 consecutive days.Barrel profile wasn't as important as quality bedding,load development.
Nowadays,I shoot sporters a little different.Working on reading conditions,and firing 5 shots as fast as practical.Running rounds up through the mag.....put the rig away.Again,squaring away the basics(bed,bore,load),I can rip some bragging groups off pretty routinely.
Any more than 5 shot strings and without major cooldowns, sporters just ain't gonna like it.They generally SUCK riding bags,thin roundy round forearms in any moderate recoiling load sees "measurable" torque.Meaning,they squirm in a conventional bag setup.I use "buds bags" and they still are a handful.
if you're wanting to buy a factory rifle , I suggest you give Tikka rifles a look . just watch the twist rate, so it will stabalize the bullets you want to shoot .
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Well, since we're going to talk brands and bolt guns, you might consider taking a look at the Savage Varmint Low Profile with the wooden stock. Its one of their "across the counter" rifles that is deadly accurate right out of the box without any work being done on it. I shoot primarily benchrest, but bought one and was surprised how accurately it shot out of the box. Ended up giving it to one of my sons who tells me even some of his friend's wives (who have little experience in shooting) love the rifle because of the light kick and unbelievable accuracy. Something to consider. Otherwise, might even want to consider a good quality AR15 (not the Gun Show crap) which are nowadays, very impressive in accuracy compared to say 20 years ago.
Alex
Alex
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
You do not need a heavy barrel for top accuracy. I still expect 1/3 moa or better out of sporter weight barrels for 3 shots. And a reasonable amount of heat wont hurt a thing in a stress relieved barrel.
long40shot
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, like the others have said. A sporter barrel can be just as accurate. But as the barrel heats up some accuracy will suffer. Are you considering a factory offering or a custom? Remington offers the Model Seven Stainless in 223. It has a 20" 1-9 twist barrel. Not sure on the stock, but it probably would need an upgrade.
Matt
Matt
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
I've had a couple of spindly little sporter barrels that were great groupers right off the rack. If I'm shooting "show off" groups with them, I'll time my shots leaving up to two minutes between shots. For most of my life, I've never owned anything but sporter style barrels and stocks. Bedding and load development counts for a heck of a lot with these rifles, but if you're humping them around over hill and dale, it's kinda nice having one that weighs seven or eight pounds instead of ten or twelve. jd
After many years of shooting almost all {all but the rimfires} heavy barreled rifles I decided a year ago that it was time to try some lightweight rifles to hunt with. It's a whole different ball game, but a lightweight gun can for sure be just as accurate as a heavy one. While I have been able to shoot some real nice groups of 5 shots you are really interested mostly in the "first one out the pipe" of a hunting/walkabout type rifle. As posted already, lightweight rifles proved for me to be a real challenge to shoot.
When I think I have a good load worked up I will test the rifle by firing one shot at a target and letting it completely cool down to just as it was unfired so that every shot is a "first one out the pipe". This is time consuming, but a good test for a hunting rifle and also a good boost for confidence. When I was testing a mountain rifle I found it tough to shoot good groups by firing 5 or even 3 shot string groups. That rifle walked with heat and it seemed like to me with the groups I was shooting that it might not be something I wanted to hunt with. Then someone on here suggested the shoot one and wait method and I realized I had a 1/2" group shooting very lightweight rifle. While some calibers and barrels can make it easy, I believe this applies to all calibers. Best of luck.
When I think I have a good load worked up I will test the rifle by firing one shot at a target and letting it completely cool down to just as it was unfired so that every shot is a "first one out the pipe". This is time consuming, but a good test for a hunting rifle and also a good boost for confidence. When I was testing a mountain rifle I found it tough to shoot good groups by firing 5 or even 3 shot string groups. That rifle walked with heat and it seemed like to me with the groups I was shooting that it might not be something I wanted to hunt with. Then someone on here suggested the shoot one and wait method and I realized I had a 1/2" group shooting very lightweight rifle. While some calibers and barrels can make it easy, I believe this applies to all calibers. Best of luck.
Yes and no! I bought a cheap Ruger American a few years ago. It has the junk hammer forged barrel. I really didnt think it would be much better than a deer gun. Well as soon as i started handloading for it i saw that i was wrong. As long as i didnt shoot to many without letting it cool it did very well. Some of my loads where 3/4 moa or better at 108 yards. But i had to let it cool to do this. If i shot more than 4 rounds(243) at a time they went south fast!!
jds holler
Gold $$ Contributor
My first "high powered rifle" was a sporter in the true sense of the word. I got it with cash that I received from a half dozen family friends and relatives when I graduated from high school in 1974. It came with barrel mounted sights, which was fine since I didn't have money for a scope for a few months. So for awhile, I didn't even know how accurate it was.
It was believe it or not, a Ruger M77, in 243 Win. It came with the integral scope mounts in the cute little red bag, and that saved me fifty bucks or so when I could finally afford a Weaver K-4 scope for it. These days, you don't usually hear Rugers accused of being real accurate, but back then they were still open for review.
Back then, we had a family friend and neighbor who was pretty serious about his rifles, reloading, and group shooting. He was the one who taught me most of what I know about shooting a group. His rifles were a mix of old Winchester 70's, and sporterized Mauser actions with heavy barrels. My first and best groups were with his 6mm Rem, which had a heavy barrel, benchrest stock, and great trigger. (Mauser action)
This friend whose name was also Jim, encouraged me a lot, and talked me up pretty good, because I really paid attention, did what he told me, and in no time was whipping out sub MOA groups with his rifle. His first reaction when he saw my new rifle was less than encouraging though.
To begin with, it was a new fangled Ruger, and a 243, which should have been a 6mm Rem, just because. It was about as far from a target shooter as you could get, but after I got my K4, I wanted to get out with him to see how it would do. I didn't even have a bench or bags to shoot from, but my first groups from the hood of my Ranchero had been pretty good. I was knocking together reloads with my Lee Loader, and the addition of an OHaus scale. It hadn't been that hard for me to settle in on a load that was keeping them in an inch at a hundred.
When Jim and I got out with his bench and bags, and shot a few, I could see that he was pretty amazed, and at least a little tickled. All I had to do was not let my barrel heat up, and that little gun would shoot along with anything that Jim had. And It continued to be that way for at least four or five years. I shot many of the proverbial "dime sized groups", and didn't have a hard time finding good loads for mainly three different bullets.
The killer for that barrel was when Sierra came out with the 6mm, 60 gr. HP's, and over 4895 that thing shot bug holes with my hottest load. A friend and I shot that rifle for a couple seasons on squirrels and chucks, and pretty soon, the best accuracy kind of disappeared. That was before I knew anything about chasing the lands and such, and at any rate I soon graduated on to other rifles that were more appropriate for squirrels than a 243. It has over the years killed a butt load of deer and coyotes, and I've turned it into an even shorter and lighter rifle for my wife. She has used it to shoot her first and so far only cow elk.
That rifle has probably been why I've never gone out of my way to get heavy barreled guns. I see the pros of them for bench shooting, and keeping the heat down with high volume shooting, but I'll never be afraid of getting a sporter barrel for one that I'll be packing a lot. jd
It was believe it or not, a Ruger M77, in 243 Win. It came with the integral scope mounts in the cute little red bag, and that saved me fifty bucks or so when I could finally afford a Weaver K-4 scope for it. These days, you don't usually hear Rugers accused of being real accurate, but back then they were still open for review.
Back then, we had a family friend and neighbor who was pretty serious about his rifles, reloading, and group shooting. He was the one who taught me most of what I know about shooting a group. His rifles were a mix of old Winchester 70's, and sporterized Mauser actions with heavy barrels. My first and best groups were with his 6mm Rem, which had a heavy barrel, benchrest stock, and great trigger. (Mauser action)
This friend whose name was also Jim, encouraged me a lot, and talked me up pretty good, because I really paid attention, did what he told me, and in no time was whipping out sub MOA groups with his rifle. His first reaction when he saw my new rifle was less than encouraging though.
To begin with, it was a new fangled Ruger, and a 243, which should have been a 6mm Rem, just because. It was about as far from a target shooter as you could get, but after I got my K4, I wanted to get out with him to see how it would do. I didn't even have a bench or bags to shoot from, but my first groups from the hood of my Ranchero had been pretty good. I was knocking together reloads with my Lee Loader, and the addition of an OHaus scale. It hadn't been that hard for me to settle in on a load that was keeping them in an inch at a hundred.
When Jim and I got out with his bench and bags, and shot a few, I could see that he was pretty amazed, and at least a little tickled. All I had to do was not let my barrel heat up, and that little gun would shoot along with anything that Jim had. And It continued to be that way for at least four or five years. I shot many of the proverbial "dime sized groups", and didn't have a hard time finding good loads for mainly three different bullets.
The killer for that barrel was when Sierra came out with the 6mm, 60 gr. HP's, and over 4895 that thing shot bug holes with my hottest load. A friend and I shot that rifle for a couple seasons on squirrels and chucks, and pretty soon, the best accuracy kind of disappeared. That was before I knew anything about chasing the lands and such, and at any rate I soon graduated on to other rifles that were more appropriate for squirrels than a 243. It has over the years killed a butt load of deer and coyotes, and I've turned it into an even shorter and lighter rifle for my wife. She has used it to shoot her first and so far only cow elk.
That rifle has probably been why I've never gone out of my way to get heavy barreled guns. I see the pros of them for bench shooting, and keeping the heat down with high volume shooting, but I'll never be afraid of getting a sporter barrel for one that I'll be packing a lot. jd
I have three 223 sporters I use for ghogs hunting when I plan on doing some walking. Two are old Rem Model 7's I had rebarreled with 20" Douglas No. 2 contour barrels (one contour heavier than the orginal factory barrel) both with 12" twists. I replaced the junk synthetic stock on the stainless one with a B&C Medalist Stock. These shoot as good as my heavy varmint rifles but I put a lot of money into them and they're obviously not off the shelf rifles. But it addresses at least part of you question, yes, they are very capable as long as you don't have to shoot multiple shots in quick succession since the barrel heats up quickly and starts to drift.
The one off the shelf 223 that I have is a Browning X Bolt Stalker with a 12" twist. Shoots in the .5 to .75 moa range with reloads using 50 gain Nosler BT's. Only complaint is with the trigger which is suppose to be adjustable but I could never get mine down below 3 1/2 to 4 lbs which was unacceptable to me for precision shooting. Had a gunsmith take it down to 2 1/2 lbs and it now works fine. Shot a bunch of ghogs with it.
Like mentioned by others, I'd look at the Tikka but I have no experince shooting a 223 with 8" twist which seems to be the standard offering by Tikka. I have a 243 and 308 in a Tikka (sporters) and I'm very pleased with both of them. The triggers are great and accuracy is very good.
The one off the shelf 223 that I have is a Browning X Bolt Stalker with a 12" twist. Shoots in the .5 to .75 moa range with reloads using 50 gain Nosler BT's. Only complaint is with the trigger which is suppose to be adjustable but I could never get mine down below 3 1/2 to 4 lbs which was unacceptable to me for precision shooting. Had a gunsmith take it down to 2 1/2 lbs and it now works fine. Shot a bunch of ghogs with it.
Like mentioned by others, I'd look at the Tikka but I have no experince shooting a 223 with 8" twist which seems to be the standard offering by Tikka. I have a 243 and 308 in a Tikka (sporters) and I'm very pleased with both of them. The triggers are great and accuracy is very good.
I notice that no one suggested the classic Rem 700..the action on which many a sniper rifle have been built upon..why is that?
Isnt that a heavy barrel rifle?
Since you want a 223 for both deer and varmints buy a Tikka sporter, they are available with wood stocks and blued action/barrels if you are a traditionalist or in a synthetic stock with stainless actions/barrels. Get the 1-8 twist barrel and it will shoot lighter bullets for varmint quite well and stabilize the heavier deer bullets also. They come with a MOA guarantee but all I have owned have been closer to half-MOA shooters.
They have an excellent out of the box trigger that is usually less than 3 lbs but are easily lightened by doing nothing more than backing one screw out to the desired weight of pull.
The only complaint I have about them is that they are BORING, all you have to do is put a scope on them and go kill stuff, they do not require a bunch of tinkering around like a lot of other rifles do.
A couple of good sources for Tikka's are Whittaker Guns and Europtics, they have both been having sales on them, also if you have a Sportsmans Warehouse nearby they have been on sale there also.
drover
They have an excellent out of the box trigger that is usually less than 3 lbs but are easily lightened by doing nothing more than backing one screw out to the desired weight of pull.
The only complaint I have about them is that they are BORING, all you have to do is put a scope on them and go kill stuff, they do not require a bunch of tinkering around like a lot of other rifles do.
A couple of good sources for Tikka's are Whittaker Guns and Europtics, they have both been having sales on them, also if you have a Sportsmans Warehouse nearby they have been on sale there also.
drover
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Yes. I literally just bought a Remington 700 ADL from Walmart in .243. I took the stock, trigger, and scope off and replaced them with quality components. Yesterday did some load testing with 87 vmax bullets at 200 yards. It shot a 5 shot 1/2 MOA group. Talk about thrilled. I need to load up and re-verify the load, but I doubt it was coincidence with 5 shots. It was $379 prior to the upgrades!
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