Spare Change Shooting

[PeterNBiddle]

Hi - I've been lurking on these forums for awhile, thought I'd say hey and thanks, because I've learned a huge amount lurking.

I decided a few years back that I wanted to shoot a fifty cent piece at 1000 yards, prone, using equipment I can carry around and a rifle that I 'built' myself.

Preferably on the first shot. I can dream.

EDIT 3/26/09: What I really want is to be able to do it with a frequency that means I know that I'm capable of doing it.

Why? Well, just because... it sounded hard and then I can make it into a necklace.,Quite possibly the second most expensive piece of jewelry I will ever own.) You can have your own shooting thing, this is mine right now.

I started from a blank slate, choosing everything from the ground up.

I'm not there yet - still lots of things to work out. EG seeing a fifty cent piece at 1000 yards.

Because I don't have a 1000 yard range handy, I decided to start out with a 200 yard range,which I have relatively nearby) and dimes.

This is where I've gotten to as of March 22nd, 2009 @ 200 yards

My best shots were my first penny, which blew up, and a second quarter and nickel, because I tagged all of those through-and-through with one shot each.

The only through-and-through dime took 5 shots. Oh well, just more practice! I will be hunting coins at boomershoot, will see what I can hit at 380 through 700 yards.

Rifle: Custom Savage 300 WSM,Savage target action, barrel and stock by Savage Shooters Supply, all assembly,including barrel mounting, stock bedding, rail lapping, ring lapping, etc.) by me)
Shooter: Me, prone, resting on el-cheapo sand bags
Optics: Falcon 35X
Ammo: P5 - Berger 210s,weighed, sorted and pointed), LTO=2.47 inches, 67.4 gr H4831SC, Norma virgin brass, CCI BR
Where: SVRC, WA State
For more pics: Click here.

 

[Cheechako]

Interesting goal. If you've shot 1000 yards before you already know that it's much more difficult than 10 times 100, or 5 times 200. The X ring on a 1000 yard Benchrest target is 3' in diameter and very few shots in a registered match will be Xs, much less the first shot.

Which brings me to an interesting question. You said you want to hit that half-dollar on the first shot. So if you shoot and miss, do you call it a day? Or is your second shot the first shot of the next try?

Good Luck. Sounds like fun.

Ray

 

[PeterNBiddle]

Hey Ray - I've shot 700 yards but never 1000, so I'm somewhat acquainted with the issues involved at longer ranges, but not so acquainted as anyone who has actually shot at 1000 yards.

This all started trying to hit a quarter at 380 yards with a .308 DPMS, SS 16X scope and and Georgia 168gr match ammo. I rimmed two, but no through-and-through... The DPMS is one helluva rifle for the money, but the kit,or perhaps just me?) wasn't up to the task.

By the time I was done figuring out what I'd need, I just rounded up to 1000 yards and a fifty cent piece. Most scope reticles completely cover a spot significantly larger than a fifty cent piece at 1000 yards, so even just that is a fun challenge.

Of course I won't stop trying if I miss. If I did that, I'd never have gotten anywhere with any kind of shooting. : )

 

[NateHaler]

Hitting a US fifty-cent piece on the first shot at a thousand yards would be exceedingly difficult. If you were to line up a hundred shooters, with a hundred such targets, the odds would be long that even one of them would be able to make a first-round hit.

Seeing the $0.50 piece will be, well, difficult at best. Unless you know where it is on the target, i.e. on the 'X' of the 'X' ring, then you'd be shooting blind, and a hit would be blind luck.

I attended a 600y egg shoot at a Reno-area match several years ago. A few top-notch long-range competitors were there, including at least a couple of long-range world-record holders. The rigs were world-class, with optics to match. This was benchrest shooting.

The first competitor to hit his egg, among about thirty total shooters, did so on the 7th shot. Most competitors did not hit their egg at all, either running out of ammo or giving up.,I got lucky and hit mine on the 13th shot if I recall...) A few competitors, including the world-record holders, did not hit the egg despite firing more than fifty shots,and perhaps close to a hundred)!!

So, good luck with your quest, but that's mostly what it will be: LUCK.

 

[PeterNBiddle]

Congratulations on shooting your egg!

I assume that it wasn't just a lucky shot for you? If you had hit the egg on your first shot, would you write it off as luck?

I wouldn't - I'd congratulate you on an even better shot.

 

[MATSUBOB]

Be glad you don't live in Turkey. If you deface Turkish currency over there you go to jail. :,

 

[NateHaler]

Congratulations on shooting your egg!
I assume that it wasn't just a lucky shot for you? If you had hit the egg on your first shot, would you write it off as luck?

If I had hit it on the first shot, I would indeed have considered it luck. And I was lucky to hit it on the 13th shot, which enabled me to advance to the shoot-off, as each of the first two people to hit their eggs in each of three relays did. I had 17,seventeen) rounds of ammo left for the shoot-off, and I did not hit the egg in those 17 shots.

Watching the 2001 NBRSA 1,000y champion shoot 40+ rounds at his egg, and not hit it, using much better equipment than I had, and capable of much better accuracy, was all the more evidence that hitting the egg was luck.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

 

[PeterNBiddle]

I don't buy that. I think you are selling yourself short.

There was no magic hand of fate guiding your bullet, there were no special odds called 'luck' that you had, that he didn't have. You both aimed at the targets, you hit, he didn't. It's not the lottery, it's shooting.

You can't load 'lucky' rounds, there's no section of midway where you can go to buy luck to add to your ammo... There's you, your equipment, and your training.

Now, if you had been fussing with your spotting scope, and someone was walking by, and they tripped, and fell on you, and hit your arm, which bumped the trigger, and the rifle went off, and you hit the egg on that shot? Okay, even I will call that luck.

But if you looked through the scope, saw the egg, and squeezed the trigger with the intent of hitting the egg, well damn! You hit that egg! You shot good.

 

[spclark]

PeterNBiddle you may want to ponder the risk you take in posting evidence of a criminal act on the internet:

'United States Code
TITLE 18
PART I
CHAPTER 17
331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightenedÑ
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.'

...then alter your goals towards some less protected target items.

Canadian coinage notwithstanding, you're needlessly exposing yourself here.

 

[PeterNBiddle]

Hello SPClark! Nice meeting you.

Assuming neither of us are lawyers,I'm certainly not one!) we may want to refrain from giving legal advice to others in a public forum, as that might be construed as practicing law without a license, which may be illegal. You can read about that here.

But what do I know, I'm not a lawyer! However I certainly must state my own positions, having been accused of a dastardly and devilish act! Also, perhaps I can provide some more information upon which others may then make their own informed decisions.

Point 1:
According to my research,I am able to google as well) the statute doesn't apply to coins which are meant to be souvenirs.

You can read more about this here, and, if you consider the US government to be a reliable source on the policy wrt US coins, here.

Point 2:
In fact, there are machines all over the US 'defacing' coins, and neither the owners nor users of those machines are doing hard time. Here's a picture of one such 'defaced' US coin. We can probably assume that the mayor of Lexington, NC is not currently in prison for the production of this keepsake.

Point 3:
As you note, it's Canadian and UK currency in the picture. The dime is actually a UK 5 pence, which happens to be the same size as a US dime... As near as I can tell, neither the UK nor Canada consider coin mutilation to be worthy of extraordinary renditions.

Lastly, but not leastly - haven't you ever put a penny on a railroad track? Growing up in a Very Small Town,population of under 2000 spread out over more than 30 square miles), I considered this to be the height of summer fun.

Wait until the afternoon freight train is heading into town, hike the mile and a half down to the tracks, sneak past XXXXXXX house, put the coins on the track, and then hide in the bushes until the train rolls by, spend several hours trying to find the coins amongst the gravel, give up when it starts to get dark, run home so that when mom rings the bell I won't be late for supper, then rummage around in the basement to try and find some duct tape, so that I can try it again. That, swimming at the town beach, trout fishing, climbing trees, playing flashlight tag, shooting my sling shot, and building forts made for a good summer.

 

[scout1]

Nate or anyone, I have never been to an egg shoot but, it dosent sound that difficult at 600 yds. Is the egg placed in front of a backer, for POI feedback ) or is it freestanding on a stake.
The reason I say it doesnt sound that difficult is that we shoot at 1' orange dots placed on a large sheet of butcher paper at 600 yds and are able to hit them with regularity. Having feedback from your previous shot helps a great deal. If these eggs are stand alone on a stake or hung with fishing line with no backer, consider my statement of, not difficult ) withdrawn.

P.S. I'm not looking for any flames, just an education.

Thanks, Jon H. / Scout1

 

[Cheechako]

PeterNBiddle

If they throw you in the slammer you won't be alone. I've shot a few dimes in my day and put pennies on railroad tracks to be squashed. And that was back when a penny was made of real copper and actually was worth something.

I'm not a lawer either but I think the key word is 'Fraudulently'. Which means to deceive for personal gain.

Now, if you shoot that dime and then claim it came from a collection and was shot by Buffalo Bill and it's worth big bucks, then they might have a case. But they have bigger fish to fry so I wouldn't worry about it.

Let us know how that 1000 yard shot works out.

Ray

 

[PeterNBiddle]

Nate or anyone, I have never been to an egg shoot but, it dosent sound that difficult at 600 yds. Is the egg placed in front of a backer, for POI feedback ) or is it freestanding on a stake.
The reason I say it doesnt sound that difficult is that we shoot at 1' orange dots placed on a large sheet of butcher paper at 600 yds and are able to hit them with regularity. Having feedback from your previous shot helps a great deal. If these eggs are stand alone on a stake or hung with fishing line with no backer, consider my statement of, not difficult ) withdrawn.

P.S. I'm not looking for any flames, just an education.

Thanks, Jon H. / Scout1

Hey Jon - the photos I've seen on-line put the eggs on top of something with no backing. I've seen very thin posts - drinking-straw thin - and I've also seen them on top of traffic cones.

In either case, it would make adjustments far more difficult without a very good spotter on a very good spotting scope. Even with that combo, it's still not going to be like shooting a big piece of paper.

Coins necessitate some backing, most likely a MOA square,so roughly 10x10 at 1000 yards), because even with a March scope, I don't think I could see a coin sitting on the end of a piece of wire at 100 yards. And if I hit it I might never find the darn thing...

 

[CJ6]

Difficulty of 50 piece @ 1000yds.See Bill Shehanes post on new record Hvy Gun set by Pedergraft 3.048 10 shot just posted.........PS enjoy your endeavor

 

[RMiller]

Id like to have a silver dollar shot clean thru at a 1000 yards my self. So your goal isnt fantasy.

IMHO, Your goal of being able to reliably hit it in 1 shot multiple times so you knew it was you that hit it rather than blind luck is a bit of a stretch tho.

At least to me, setting it up and firing away at it till I hit it wouldnt mean much. Im sure I would eventually hit it. But a First shot hit would be something Id keep, luck or not.

Good luck, keep at it and im sure youll hit it.

Ryan

 

[Rust]

An admirable goal but I'll just throw out that consistantly calling and making a first round hit on a 50 cent piece at 1,000 is impossible.

 

[Cheechako]

The reason I say it doesnt sound that difficult is that we shoot at 1' orange dots placed on a large sheet of butcher paper at 600 yds and are able to hit them with regularity.Jon H. / Scout1

Jon

Man, you're going to have to define with regularity.

I shoot 600 yard Benchrest. At a National Championship tournament you will find the best long-range shooters in the world shooting the best rifles money can buy. The X ring on a 600 yard target is 1.2' in diameter. During the sighting period, each shot is spotted and marked. Seldom will you see any of these shooters hit that X ring with 'regularity'. Usually it's more like 'never' or, at best,'seldom'.

Let's take a typical National Championship match report. The 30 best targets shot over the entire weekend. 10 shot groups. Total of 300 shots. 38 total Xs. That's 13%. Not what I would call 'with regularity.'

JMHO

Ray

 

[12man]

Good Shooting & sounds like fun especially out there at 500 yds. The change looked like Canadian $$$ so it isn't illegal to deface foreign money yet? Or is it,you never know with the current Ignorance present in D.C. today.

 

[458]

Be glad you don't live in Turkey. If you deface Turkish currency over there you go to jail. :,

It's unlawful to deface American currency too.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=426715

Defacing US currency is indeed illegal. Defacement of currency in such a way that it is made unfit for circulation comes under the
jurisdiction of the United States Secret Service:

United States Code
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 17 - COINS AND CURRENCY
333. Mutilation of national bank obligations

Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or
unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking
association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

FINDLAW
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/17/sections/section_333.html

or

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defaces&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000333----000-.html

Prior to 1994 when this law was amended, the statute read ?fined not more than $100?. This was changed in 1994 to read shall be fined under this title which effectively gives the court the authority to impose a fine at its discretion. Of course the imprisonment terms mentioned in the statute speaks for itself.

NOTES TITLE 18 SECTION 333
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000333----000-notes.html

This next statute concerns the defacing of currently circulated coins, either foreign or domestic:

United States Code
TITLE 18
PART I
CHAPTER 17
331. Mutilation, diminution, and falsification of coins

http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=defaces&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000331----000-.html

Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than
five years, or both.

Like the statute I previously discussed, prior to 1994 when this law was amended, the statute read fined not more than $2,000?. This was changed in 1994 to read shall be fined under this title which effectively gives the court the authority to impose a fine at its discretion. Of course the imprisonment terms mentioned in the statute speaks for itself.

NOTES TITLE 18 SECTION 331
http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000331----000-notes.html

Do people sometimes do this and get away with it??
Sure they do. We've all seen it and yet no one seems to be swooping down on the violators to haul them off to jail.

If this is the law spelled out before us in black and white then why doesn't the government prosecute everyone who does it??
Your guess is as good as mine; but nevertheless, there's the law, just as it is written and just as you asked.

I hope you find that my research exceeds your expectations. If you have any questions about my research please post a clarification request prior to rating the answer. Otherwise I welcome your rating and your final comments and I look forward to working with you again in the near future. Thank you for bringing your question to us.

Best regards;
Tutuzdad-ga ? Google Answers Researcher

INFORMATION SOURCES

FDIC
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/8000-1200.html

CORNELL LAW SCHOOL
http://www.law.cornell.edu/