Sorting Brass

[finnaddict]

I am the proud owner of 100 brand new Lapua 243 Win Brass. I'm in no hurry to put them into use, but would like to sort them into the best 25, 2nd best 25, etc. I've read that neck thickness sorting is important, but also that some will weight sort. My questions:

Would you fire-form them all first, as is, then go into trimming to uniform length, and neck thickness measuring?

I am interested in reading what you "one-holers" do to a new batch of brass.

The brand huggers declaring that Lapua negates measure, have apparently never measured it.

The advantage of Lapua brass is it's harder, and 'problem' departures in measure are fewer -depending on cartridge & lot.
With this, you can still find every variance in Lapua seen with any other brand.

Only answered the OP's question of "new LAPUA brass. Would you fire-form them all first, as is, then go into trimming to uniform length, and neck thickness measuring"?

Your are absolutely right. It does require measuring but not for that initial first shot. Ain't much of anything you can do it at this point. Afterwards and every time there after it does and quite a bit. I know that. I use it and I spend nearly a full day and a half preparing 70+ rounds of it after I use it. Measure length, trim, anneal every time, shoulder bump, clean necks twice on so on. Yeah... LAPUA brass requires a lot of careful preparation if you want it to work right and last "forever".
Yup. You bet. I am a brand hugger. Use LAPUA exclusively and I love working with it. Nothing on this planet even close to it's quality.

 

[mikecr]

I begin with thickness variance measured around mid-necks. My cutoff here is >1/2thou total variance, and mean thickness 1/2thou from standard. This reduces future runout, and capacity variance.
I turn necks if needed and no more than needed(for clearance/donuts), up onto shoulders ~1/8th. I'll run a Sinclair expander mandrel through necks regardless.
I mill pockets to standard depth, and inspect flash holes. This enables me to set same height primers at the same crush value and still be the same distance from case head. I don't actually mess with flash holes anymore.
At this point, with a custom chamber, if needed, I trim just off chamber end(-5thou), I've never seen it needed with factory chambers at this point. With formed shoulder improving/sharpening the clearance will grow.
I chamfer for ~1/16th for seating, and deburr outside case mouths.
Load & fire form cases 3 times with no more than minimal bushing neck sizing.

Now check trim length. Keep cases that will trim to a standard within 10thou of chamber end(for custom chamber), or majority standard with factory chamber. Trim to standard & re-prep mouths.
Measure H20 capacity to mouths, and consider significant departures based on QuickLoad predictions with load.
At this point you have cases that are as straight as they're ever going to be(barring issues with chamber or action), matching in capacity, donut free, and with consistent neck tension.

But now it's time to screw it all up.
The cases may be tight on extraction by now, and soon shoulders will need bumping anyway.
Causing brass to yield(through sizing) is adding evil energy and invoking new springback. A new balance.
This mutates the cases, runout grows, cases stretch to needed trimming, neck tension changes, and capacity variance grows.
So you want as little of this as you can get away with, and it's possible to prevent all together, but minimal sizing is practical enough, and many times the best you can do.

You won't produce and sustain the best brass by writing checks. You have to make it happen.

 

[AusFclass]

The thing is . . . . With all this sizing, trimming, neck turning, flash hole reaming etc etc . . .if done well it helps a bit . . . . . If done wrong you can be in lots of trouble!!

 

[mikecr]

Don't forget obsessive annealing AusFclass..

 

[Area Man]

Good info, all. Thanks.

Question on length trimming. Last winter, Shilen installed a barrel on my M700 VLS. Recently I bought the Sinclair insert to measure the length of the chamber. I get 2.074" for the chamber length (consistently with 3 measurements), while the book max cartridge length is 2.045". Can that be correct?

 

[CatShooter]

Good info, all. Thanks.

Question on length trimming. Last winter, Shilen installed a barrel on my M700 VLS. Recently I bought the Sinclair insert to measure the length of the chamber. I get 2.074" for the chamber length (consistently with 3 measurements), while the book max cartridge length is 2.045". Can that be correct?

Yes... it is typical for chambers to be much longer that max cart length, because of dumb reloaders vs. safety issues.

If a new loader doesn't trim, by the time a case has grown ~30 thou, the head has fallen off... so it is a built in safety limit.

If you are an advanced shooter/hand-loader, and need less space between the end of the case and the end of the chamber, you must get a reamer cut for you.

There is no down side to having a chamber that is 30 thou longer.

Jack Neary (Bench rest HoF shooter) recommends at least 20 thou space between the case mouth and chamber end, in his series on rifle tuning.

 

[dmoran]

There is no down side to having a chamber that is 30 thou longer.

Jack Neary (Bench rest HoF shooter) recommends at least 20 thou space between the case mouth and chamber end, in his series on rifle tuning.

That may fine and dandy advise in a small case with fast burning powder like Jack's 6PPC.
But in many long range calibers with slower burning powders and long throats, a 30-thou gap is prone to carbon ring and carbon layer issue.
Especially in the disciplines that shoot larger round counts between cleaning.

So many variables from all the different calibers, case capacities, and powder types, to say what works in a PPC for one guy, will stand up in say a 6.5x284 or a 300-WSM, for others.

Donovan

 

[Ackman]

Good info, all. Thanks.

Question on length trimming. Last winter, Shilen installed a barrel on my M700 VLS. Recently I bought the Sinclair insert to measure the length of the chamber. I get 2.074" for the chamber length (consistently with 3 measurements), while the book max cartridge length is 2.045". Can that be correct?

That's the way most chambers are. Unless it's a custom spec reamer, they're much longer than brass. Trimming new brass is unnecessary. When you know your gun's chamber length, just keep track of case length and chances are you'll never ever have to trim necks.

 

[mattri]

Lots of great information here as always.

Now, not to go off track but once you feel that you have your cases prepped and sorted to your liking try this for fun:

Find a safe and accurate load that your rifle likes, then take 3 cases from your "A1" group, 3 cases from your "middle of the road" group and three of your "someone at the factory has a drinking problem" cases and load them all as perfectly as you can. Then mix them up so that you don't know which is which- you can always sort them back out later. Then go to the range.

 

[finnaddict]

Lots of great information here as always.

Now, not to go off track but once you feel that you have your cases prepped and sorted to your liking try this for fun:

Find a safe and accurate load that your rifle likes, then take 3 cases from your "A1" group, 3 cases from your "middle of the road" group and three of your "someone at the factory has a drinking problem" cases and load them all as perfectly as you can. Then mix them up so that you don't know which is which- you can always sort them back out later. Then go to the range.

Hahha. Done that once. You will be surprised.

 

[CatShooter]

Lots of great information here as always.

Now, not to go off track but once you feel that you have your cases prepped and sorted to your liking try this for fun:

Find a safe and accurate load that your rifle likes, then take 3 cases from your "A1" group, 3 cases from your "middle of the road" group and three of your "someone at the factory has a drinking problem" cases and load them all as perfectly as you can. Then mix them up so that you don't know which is which- you can always sort them back out later. Then go to the range.

Hahha. Done that once. You will be surprised.

I has done that, and I wasn't surprised - I think a lot of this stuff is anal compulsive...

 

[Webster]

I have a rifle similar to yours but much older. It's a Rem 700 BDL Varmint model, Kreiger 14 twist no turn, 6BR Norma and glass bedded. 15X scope. Jewell trigger which I don't think helped groups, it's set at about 1.5 lbs. I think if you wanted extreme accuracy you should have got a 6BR or 6BRX. I would shoot the rifle without all the serious case prep and see how it does. I don't think weighing cases and all of the other stuff would show a difference in a modified factory rifle. Keep in mind my rifle was intended to be used for GH hunting.

My Case Prep:
I did a skin pass with a K&M neck turner and cleaned up about half the neck diameter. Final neck thickness 0.0125". If you turn them more you are just expanding the case more when it's fired. The way I prep cases is to de-prime, clean primer pockets, don't need to check case OAL, size with a Redding die with a .266" washer, light neck chamfer, prime, powder, bullet. I seat the bullets with a Wilson straight line seater.

I don't consider myself a good shooter. I don't have good trigger control and it's hard to hold the rifle perfectly still on sandbags. I don't use wind flags. I look at other peoples flags if they are near my bench. I am still learning the best way to hold the rifle (pull into shoulder, check pressure and trigger hand grip). The rifle will routinely shoot 1/4" 5 shot groups. Once in a while I shoot 3 shot groups under 0.200". What I am trying to say is that if it's supposed to be an accurate varmint rifle you don't need techniques used to try and set records at 600 yards. Start out keeping it simple and see how the rifle shoots.

 

[Area Man]

Webster (and others),

I appreciate your comments and understand that this probably won't ever be a trophy winning rifle, even if I was a good enough shooter. I just like to try and remove the variables that might keep it from being the best it can be. Screwing around with cases and loading techniques is my hobby (can't shoot at night, anyway) so why not. Like a wise man once said, "Time spent doing something you enjoy is never wasted."

So on the trim length issue, is it best to decide on a trim length, say 0.020 less than the chamber and trim if that is exceeded or just let them grow as long as they are a safe length, but only trim them to a consistent length?

 

[CatShooter]

So on the trim length issue, is it best to decide on a trim length, say 0.020 less than the chamber and trim if that is exceeded or just let them grow as long as they are a safe length, but only trim them to a consistent length?

Measure the cases and find the shortest case - then trim the rest to be equal to the shortest case.

 

[amlevin]

Once in a while I shoot 3 shot groups under 0.200".

I've always done great on 3-shot groups. It's those darned 4th and 5th shots that blow up the groups 8)

I'm strongly considering just going to single shot groups. Haven't screwed one of those up yet : :

 

[CatShooter]

Once in a while I shoot 3 shot groups under 0.200".

I've always done great on 3-shot groups. It's those darned 4th and 5th shots that blow up the groups 8)

I'm strongly considering just going to single shot groups. Haven't screwed one of those up yet : :

Are you allowed to shoot ten and pick the best 3??

 

[Webster]

I think you will find that you are the limiting factor. It takes time at the range and trying to understand everything you see on the targets. You cannot just shoot at the targets and say that's what the rifle will do. All of the things you want to do to the cases is a waste of time. You will never be able to see how weighing the cases affects group size.

 

[amlevin]

Are you allowed to shoot ten and pick the best 3??

Isn't that why they make "Pasters" 8) 8)