soft seating, hard seating and at the lands???

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Yup and they work! I'm very happy with the results. If I have time I might post a video. To show, That I know what I am talking about. The bullet with marker shows about an 1/8 drag marks from the lands. But OMG they don't stick!!!!!

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Rocky are you sure the bullet isn't just getting pushed in the case when you close the bolt?

In any case, that is precisely my definition and practice of "soft seating"...sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, yet loose enough to where the bullet will push back into the case neck as the bolt is fully closed, and yet not tight enough to jam the bullet into the lans. It's a tricky negotiation to get it to the right tension, but somewhat forgiving, too! I will always tighten up the neck tension with a bushing die (the only time that I ever use them) when the bullet tends to drop down onto the powder, or is too easily twisted in the neck with the fingers. Again for me, it is also how I work to achieve a "touching the lans" seating depth.

Dan

 

[Erik Cortina]

Yup and they work! I'm very happy with the results. If I have time I might post a video. To show, That I know what I am talking about. The bullet with marker shows about an 1/8 drag marks from the lands. But OMG they don't stick!!!!!

You stated that you are seating bullets .105" into the lands, getting 1/4 vertical (MOA or inches?) at 500 yards and your neck tension is

.002.5

The thing here is that you are not jamming your bullets, you are in the lands, which is different. If you were jamming them, they would push back. Also Rocky, you can't have two decimal places, so instead of writing ".002.5", it is .0025.

 

[artbosco]

Ok I need some help with these concepts. I have read about the different types of seatings that people use for competitive shooting, but I don't get the soft seating and hard seating. How do you determine this seating depth and how about hard seating?
Also what are the benefits of those seatings?

Help! I am confused

"Soft-Seating" is merely having less neck tension than can "hold" the bullet in place when seating into the lands. EXAMPLE: let say you are running 3K neck tension and "jam" the bullets 20K into the lands. You have enough "tension" in the neck to "hold" the bullet in place as you push the bullet to 20K in. If, on the other hand, you have a 1K neck tension and attempt to perform the same task (seating the bullet 20K in) you will PUSH the bullet back into the case neck as the resistance to pushing overcomes the ability of the neck tension to "hold" the bullet in place. That is SOFT SEATING..

Jason Baney, as described in his article on the portion called 6.5 x 284 in the cartridge guide section, uses this method. I do too. However, some rifles like MORE tension than others. If you are using say 3K neck tension and your rifle seems to want to shoot but you are not getting the kind of groups you had hoped for, ONE of the many areas to look at is neck tension. That is why most people use bushing dies as you determine how much tension by the size of the bushing.. I hope this helps..

Remember to expend that round rather than trying to extract it or you'll end up with a bullet in the lead/barrel and a lot of powder in your action. It's not fun trying to clean all that powder out of an action when you were hoping to have fun competing, working up a load or plinking.

 

[snowpro440]

I thought his decimal point system might have been a little different than what I would use.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Rocky are you sure the bullet isn't just getting pushed in the case when you close the bolt?

In any case, that is precisely my definition and practice of "soft seating"...sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, yet loose enough to where the bullet will push back into the case neck as the bolt is fully closed, and yet not tight enough to jam the bullet into the lans. It's a tricky negotiation to get it to the right tension, but somewhat forgiving, too! I will always tighten up the neck tension with a bushing die (the only time that I ever use them) when the bullet tends to drop down onto the powder, or is too easily twisted in the neck with the fingers. Again for me, it is also how I work to achieve a "touching the lans" seating depth.

Dan

Dan, You're the only one that gets it. I use to run .001 neck tension and the bullets would push back and not evenly. With a minimum of TWO AND A HALF THOUSANDS. They don't.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Rocky are you sure the bullet isn't just getting pushed in the case when you close the bolt?

In any case, that is precisely my definition and practice of "soft seating"...sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, yet loose enough to where the bullet will push back into the case neck as the bolt is fully closed, and yet not tight enough to jam the bullet into the lans. It's a tricky negotiation to get it to the right tension, but somewhat forgiving, too! I will always tighten up the neck tension with a bushing die (the only time that I ever use them) when the bullet tends to drop down onto the powder, or is too easily twisted in the neck with the fingers. Again for me, it is also how I work to achieve a "touching the lans" seating depth.

Dan

Dan, You're the only one that gets it. I use to run .001 neck tension and the bullets would push back and not evenly. With a minimum of TWO AND A HALF THOUSANDS. They don't.

They will if you seat them further out.

 

[Forum Boss]

Quote: "No. I have gone as far as .118 in the lands"

I understand the factors which have been stated to explain this statement. However, people should know that this is absolutely impossible with most bullet/throat set ups. As another poster has observed, normally somewhere between .020 and .035 from first jacket to barrel contact ("first touch") is where the bullet will max out.

Beyond that, either the bullet will move back or the bolt won't close -- in almost all situations.

In every situation I've encountered when someone said they were .050"+ in the lands etc., it turned out the measured length to "first touch" was incorrect. Often this occurs because people were not using their length to lands gauge correctly. With the Hornady (formerly Stony Point) tool, you need to push in very gently, then tap a couple times to ensure the bullet is straight and actually touching the lands.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Rocky are you sure the bullet isn't just getting pushed in the case when you close the bolt?

In any case, that is precisely my definition and practice of "soft seating"...sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, yet loose enough to where the bullet will push back into the case neck as the bolt is fully closed, and yet not tight enough to jam the bullet into the lans. It's a tricky negotiation to get it to the right tension, but somewhat forgiving, too! I will always tighten up the neck tension with a bushing die (the only time that I ever use them) when the bullet tends to drop down onto the powder, or is too easily twisted in the neck with the fingers. Again for me, it is also how I work to achieve a "touching the lans" seating depth.

Dan

Dan, You're the only one that gets it. I use to run .001 neck tension and the bullets would push back and not evenly. With a minimum of TWO AND A HALF THOUSANDS. They don't.

They will if you seat them further out.

Yup your right Erick, Next time I'll hit it in there with a 5lbs sledge so I can make sure they stick. I forgot that you know everything. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. It won't happen again. I hope you can forgive me. I forgot how smart you are......

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Quote: "No. I have gone as far as .118 in the lands"

I understand the factors which have been stated to explain this statement. However, people should know that this is absolutely impossible with most bullet/throat set ups. As another poster has observed, normally somewhere between .020 and .035 from first jacket to barrel contact ("first touch") is where the bullet will max out.

Beyond that, either the bullet will move back or the bolt won't close -- in almost all situations.

In every situation I've encountered when someone said they were .050"+ in the lands etc., it turned out the measured length to "first touch" was incorrect. Often this occurs because people were not using their length to lands gauge correctly. With the Hornady (formerly Stony Point) tool, you need to push in very gently, then tap a couple times to ensure the bullet is straight and actually touching the lands.

Exactly. From first touch, verified over and over again. I can push the bullet in another .105 and the bullet won't stick in the barrel. But if I use a Hornaday with the same measurements on a loaded round the bullet will stick in the lands. The two and a half thousands neck tension on a loaded and chambered round will stop that from happening.

 

[fguffey]

I am the fan of bullet jump, I want my bullet running when it hits the lands, I do not want my bullet setting still at the lands when the trigger is pulled.

F. Guffey

 

[Erik Cortina]

Rocky are you sure the bullet isn't just getting pushed in the case when you close the bolt?

In any case, that is precisely my definition and practice of "soft seating"...sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place, yet loose enough to where the bullet will push back into the case neck as the bolt is fully closed, and yet not tight enough to jam the bullet into the lans. It's a tricky negotiation to get it to the right tension, but somewhat forgiving, too! I will always tighten up the neck tension with a bushing die (the only time that I ever use them) when the bullet tends to drop down onto the powder, or is too easily twisted in the neck with the fingers. Again for me, it is also how I work to achieve a "touching the lans" seating depth.

Dan

Dan, You're the only one that gets it. I use to run .001 neck tension and the bullets would push back and not evenly. With a minimum of TWO AND A HALF THOUSANDS. They don't.

They will if you seat them further out.

Yup your right Erick, Next time I'll hit it in there with a 5lbs sledge so I can make sure they stick. I forgot that you know everything. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. It won't happen again. I hope you can forgive me. I forgot how smart you are......

Rocky, you just have not reached the jam point, that's all. You do not believe you could possibly push the bullet out of the other end of the barrel with .0025" neck tension do you? At some point, the bullet will jam into the case.

I believe what is happening here is that your freebore is very tight or your bullet very fat, in which case you are confusing the drag on the freebore with your lands, when in reality it is not.

 

[Jefferson]

Not hard at all, it closes perfectly. And opens the same way.

I have already had 3 friends check it out in person and after they checked the bullet. They looked like deer in the headlights......... My gunsmith was surprised also but he said its because the bullet angle and the throat angle are almost perfect mates.

bullet angle and throat angle are important to note here

I just got a 308 done to about 3.000 coal but the gunsmith A MASTER MACHINIST WHO BUILD a great BIPOD took a few minutes and showed me something I knew but was not entirely familiar with this bullet and reamer combination (I am famiiar with benchrest reamers and chambers and just touch the lands and then chase the lands thorughout barrel life)

he took and very gently pushed the bullet to JUST BARELY TOUCH THE LANDS

then he took and placed a bit of pressure on the bullet BY PUSHING IT INTO THE LANDS FIRMLY not punching it into the lands but just firmly pushing the bullet up against the lands

THE DIFFERENCE FORM BOTH MEASUREMENTS WAS ABOUT 60 THOU OF AN INCH .060

so you see if the bullet and reamer dimensions are very close the SOMEWHAT firmer or difference between measurements can be a lot,

now he is used to measuring things properly and so am I so the difference was a lot in ablsolute terms perhaps but in reality

IT IS ALL IN HOW YOU MEASURE, if you are very precise and the combination is a very close fit you can extend the measurement a long ways with the

PARTICULAR BULLET PROFILE you are using,

most people with regular reamers are confused as to how this .105 measurement could possibly be correct but i am sure it is, the problem is the .105 may just be where most people would call hard jam,

hope this helps

Jefferson

 

[dmoran]

I believe what is happening here is that your freebore is very tight or your bullet very fat, in which case you are confusing the drag on the freebore with your lands, when in reality it is not.

I agree, that would be what he is seeing and referring to, and is aspect that does happen. If he had actual +.100" of hash marks from the lands, they would have to be in the form of "ripped jackets", not hash marks.


AZ_F_Class -
Lock a caliper at your barrels advertised bore diameter, then insert a bullet from its tip. Where it makes contact is the point on the bullet where normal land contact would appear. Then try pushing the bullet in .105" from that point and see what the calipers does to it and how little distance you can push it.

Next from one of your loaded rounds with chambered hash marks on it, measure the diameter at which you have .105" in length of hash marks. Betting they will be at caliber diameter, hence free-bore contact from either thick bullets or a tight throat.

The only way possible else wise would be as mentioned above, a used barrel that has the throat eroded out.
My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[Lbart]

I believe what is happening here is that your freebore is very tight or your bullet very fat, in which case you are confusing the drag on the freebore with your lands, when in reality it is not.

I believe Erik is right. My 7/270 WSM barrels show all 5 rifling marks on the bullet shanks of a chambered round. The reamer has a 0.2843 diameter and a length of 0.2168 to the front of the lead. The marks on my bullets measure approx 0.215". As the barrels wear the marks grow less distinct. I hope the attached photo will show this.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Checking the lands with a chamber indicator. This is an exact copy of my chamber.

The round after being spun in the chamber indicator. You can see where the lands starts.

Dummy round being checked at 2.308 before chambering.

Dummy round after chambering. You can see the drag marks from the lands.

Measuring dummy round after chambering. It's 2.309 probably because I can hold the calipers while taking a picture but you get the point.

Measuring the drag marks from the lands .115

Measuring the overall length. It measures 3.112

In this picture you can see the marks from the chamber indicator. The line that goes around the bullet. You can also see where the drag marks start.

And here's something else. ;D The empty chamber indicator has no rounds through it. Duh. But the rifle has over 3,700 rounds through it. My chamber has not eroded. If has slight fire checking, but only on the lands, not the grooves. Krieger said that's got to be a 1 in 10,000 barrel. And it's mine!!! ;D

 

[Erik Cortina]

3,700 rounds and not a single .001" throat erosion? Ok Rocky, time to put the beer down!

 

[dmoran]

Rocky - thanks for the pictures !.!.!
They show exactly what Erik, myself, and Larry stated above <> tight chamber, not even touching the rifling
7000 and no erosion..... that is some lucky barrel !.!.! and probably more like 1 in a 1,000,000
Donovan