• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

So whats the real deal with all this ES/SD BS

While perfect compensation can only occur at one distance how bad do you think a 2" tune at 1k will shoot at 600?
If a barrel is tuned to shoot 2" groups at 1000, the group at about 600 will subtend much more than 2/10th MOA vertically. Maximum ordnate happens at 55 to 60 percent of target range. That's where the two trajectories have the greatest vertical separation

Sierra's software easily plots two trajectories for a given bullet at two muzzle velocities to show that.
 
Last edited:
While perfect compensation can only occur at one distance how bad do you think a 2" tune at 1k will shoot at 600? Very well. Not always the other way around though. Thats why my advice is to tune at the longest distance you will shoot. About the only game I would get crazy over ES would be ELR. My most extreme example was a ladder I shot that put 3 shots into .8" at the low node and 4 shots into 1.9" at the high node. Each of those nodes had over 30 fps of ES for each group of shots. But in general 12-15 fps of ES into 1-2" of vertical is quite common. I dont know why it seems to work like this, but if I had to pick a load based on nothing but chrony data I would pick the 12-15 es load over the 3 es load 99% of the time.
This is good to hear as going back over my data and pictures of targets, I clearly passed over good loads because the "numbers" were not there. I would get a great group then dick with it trying to get the numbers to come in as well and screw it all up and get frustrated. I'm starting to believe this is why I have always had bad luck with varget and gave up on it, it always shot better with worse numbers if that makes since and I could never get good numbers AND grouping!! Damn I have been looking as this all wrong for several years.... now I fell like an idiot!
 
This is good to hear as going back over my data and pictures of targets, I clearly passed over good loads because the "numbers" were not there. I would get a great group then dick with it trying to get the numbers to come in as well and screw it all up and get frustrated. I'm starting to believe this is why I have always had bad luck with varget and gave up on it, it always shot better with worse numbers if that makes since and I could never get good numbers AND grouping!! Damn I have been looking as this all wrong for several years.... now I fell like an idiot!

Borescopes, concentricity/runout gauges, and chronographs are at the top of my list of misused and overemphasized equipment. Leave them on the shelf until you have a problem you're trying to diagnose. They should not be a part of load development.
 
I can tell if my loading process is consistent by variations in fps. Also, you can weed out stray pieces of brass. Other than that, I rely on the target to tell me what load is the best.
 
Congrats to all of you folks. This is one of the most useful threads I have read on the Forum for a long time!

I shoot long range bench rest and characterize each new barrel for best ES for five, five shot groups done in round robin. This finds the load with least ES. This tunes the load for the first of the two dominant resonances of the barrel, the longitudinal resonance and is similar to a simple organ pipe resonance.
Then, I shoot at 1000 yd with 3 shot groups with one nominal load, one 0.5 to 1 % high and one low. I then adjust my tuner for best vertical dispersion. This is the cantilever resonance. This is the resonance where the barrel whips up and down a bit and correct tuning gives best positive compensation.
Now, I have a load that has low ES so the positive compensation only has to deal with a tight ES as we have already tuned the load for minimum Velocity variations. Then I find the accuracy when shooting 600 yd is still good.

And, yes, I do pretty well at long range bench rest, but I still suffer from trigger puller problems some time!!
 
Do you plan on revisiting a couple loads that you passed up?
Absolutely! Going through data and targets and looking for loads that grouped well but had "sorta" good numbers but passed over. I have found a few worth retesting, some are kinda slow but shot great and a few are faster.
 
Here's a varget test that I completely tossed out because I could not shift the loads and get decent numbers (single digit ES numbers) but 28.5gr and 29.4gr load showed potential. It's one I'm going to retest for sure...

KIMG1094.JPG
 
Oh hell yeah.
At 200 yards 29.4 shot 1/4 Moa at 2872 FPS
Addendum- when I look at 30.0- your still around a half minute testing and your flat out to 30.2
I think you could bring something together30.1 then with seating BAM your rockin
maybe tinker with primers who knows maybe a home run
30.0 and 30.2 both started showing signs of pressure, primer and snug bolt lift on 30.2
 
Some newer varget cant get to 30.0 easily. 30.0 has been my go to load for years. I guess when my current lot from 5-6yrs ago is gone ill have to start over. Always work up to somebody elses suggested load
 
Do you think that a chrono could be useful to try to duplicate velocities when you have to use a different lot of a given powder?

I usually find a load recipe that shoots the best, and then chrono, but if I am working with certain combinations, I use the chrono to watch for sudden velocity spikes or drops.
 
After shooting some groups tonight at 300 yds. I'm finding that for the most part the ES numbers really don't help group size,
Play around with changes in velocity on a ballistics program.

You'll find almost no change in vertical in short range. 600-1000y, you'll see the vertical spread out and become significant. So the low ES/SD stuff is for long range.

David
 
Great read guys many pieces of useful information here. My simple mind will spend many days attempting to digest it all.
 
using a 6.5 140gn Berger VLD with a G1 BC of .6 and a 2600 - 2650 FPS muzzle velocity (50 ES for the math challanged)

at 100 it does not matter unless you are shooting groups in the zeros

with a fixed point of aim at 300 the point of impact is .7 inches lower on the target at 2600 than it would be at 2650

with a fixed point of aim at 500 the point of impact is 2.6 inches lower on the target at 2600 than it would be at 2650

with a fixed point of aim at 1000 the point of impact is 15.8 inches lower on the target at 2600 than it would be at 2650

that is basic physics, depends on target distance and your own expectations/abilities whether it matters

you can run the numbers yourself at http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi if you doubt
 
I have also wondered many times the degree of correlation of bullet speed consistency from shot to shot, to how they group on the target. Yes, theoretically, if all other factors were equal, two bullets with the same speed should have the same or very close point of impact (POI) on the target. The keywords being “very close”, which have to be defined, and I won’t get into that so I won’t risk never getting to my point here.

I have been shooting F-Class for almost six years, so I consider myself and advanced novice. I recognize that that compared to most competitive shooters, I know very little, and that only encourages me to learn more. I do this (learning) by asking questions, observing, and collecting data.

I look closely at every target I shoot, and document everything I can so later on I can compare results. I have shot very few targets at 100 yards, a few more at 300, most at 600, and some at 1000.

I analyze my 100- and 300-yard target using the paper target themselves. For the 600-yard targets, which are the ones I shoot mostly, I have both the paper targets and the e-target screen capture displays. For the 1000-yard targets, I have only the e-target screen capture displays.

I shot this first target (seven bulls) over a week ago at 300 yards for testing various Varget loads on my 6mm-BRA. This barrel had only 23 rounds prior, and I wanted to get an idea of the speed, potential over pressure, etc. I shot these with the MagnetoSpeed chronograph attached to the barrel. I wrote down on the target the speed of each shot. I fired only three shots at bull No.2 as that was all I loaded with this charge, by mistake.

I did not have enough room to fit all seven loads on the same paper, so bull No.7 was on a different paper, adjacent to the other six bulls. Loads one through six were all at the same bullet seating depth, but different from number seven, which was the load I had been using on the previous barrel rather successfully. The old barrel, BTW, still shoots fine.

How close the speeds correlate to their POI, and the effect of their spread, I leave up to you to decide.

At 300 Yards
20190808 - 7 at 300y 001sm.jpg

At 1000 Yards - One match results (20 rounds)
199-15X Target and Data.jpg
(The wind fooled me - I saw it coming but did not believe it. From an X for #10, a 10 for #11, and finally the lone 9 for #12.)

At 1000 yards. My results at the 2019 Indiana Regional at CIHPRS, Camp Atterbury.
Note that the Standard Deviations and Extreme Spreads had no correlation to their respective scores, as other factors (likely) had more effect.
2019 IN Regional Score Analysis.jpg

So why bother with loading to within a kernel of powder, seating bullets to the nearest 0.001", etc.? Simple: Those are the few things (factors) that we can control. There are many others that we cannot control, such as the wind, temperature, being able to clearly see the target, for which we can only hope to make good estimates.

Alex
 
Last edited:
Joe,
That load was 54.80 gr of H4831SC with 180 gr Hybrids, for 284 Win.
Even though that barrel had 1585 rounds a couple of months ago, and was still shooting very well, I decided to break in a new barrel. I think the new one likes just a tad less powder. I'll soon find out.
Thx!
Alex
 
As the beginner here, I have a question for any/all of you. Today, using a Ruger Precision, 6.5 Creedmoor, I tested some of my first loads. Using a chronograph (yard sale find by my wife), I shot two groups of 5 at a steady pace. Load was Hornady ELD-M, 43g H 4350, seated at 2.710. The groups were .612 and .693”. However the velocities had 4 radical deviations. Six rounds ranged between 2738 ( first shot)and 2773 (7th shot). I had three rounds drop all the way to 2723 and one round jump to 2782. All charges were thrown a few grains below 43, then trickled up using an RCBS 1000. Cases were once fired, Hornady match and I used CCI BR-2 primers. What can cause those radical jumps? I did have some consistency problems with a Hornady seating die in a Lee Classic Breechlock press. Not enough thread purchase to keep the die steady. I don’t have this problem with Lee seating dies for .223 and .308. I did read that wimpy shoulder pressure can cause velocities to drop.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,856
Messages
2,224,623
Members
79,979
Latest member
Cableman22b
Back
Top