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So whats the real deal with all this ES/SD BS

I have been loading for several years using a Chargemaster lite and my backup trusty beam scale. Sometimes coming across a load that gives single digit ES numbers sometimes not. Thinking that really low ES numbers would improve group size by making each round have damn near the exact same velocity, I upgraded my bench. I purchased a really, really nice A&D FX120i scale that will really accurately measure powder. Well after using this scale and loading rounds right down to the kernel of powder to get loads EXACTLY the same the ES numbers don't really change much?? What seems to affect these numbers more is case fill, I'm finding. Primers also affect these numbers but to a way lesser degree.
Sometimes as the charge weight goes down so does the ES numbers like with IMR8208XBR.
After shooting some groups tonight at 300 yds. I'm finding that for the most part the ES numbers really don't help group size, for instance...

shooting my 6BR with 108gr ELD's
Norma 203B 29.2gr / 2778 /ES 9 / SD 3.8 shot a 5 shot group of 3.591
Norma 203B 29.5gr / 2809 / ES 18 / SD 6.5 shot a 5 shot group of 1.619
Shooting Sierra 85gr HPBT
Varget 30.0gr with CCI 450 primer / 3007 / ES 24 / SD 7.4 shot a 10 shot group of 1.325
Varget 30.0gr with Rem 7 1/2 / 3021 / ES 14 / SD 4.2 shot a 10 shot group of 1.506
 
What distance were you shooting at?

Why do you care about the velocity numbers ? If a load prints good on paper, that's what were after. I dont even own a chronograph. I try to do whatever the paper tells me. The shape of the group(while watching conditions ) will learn you more than any chronograph IMO.

The benefit to being able to load to the kernel, consistently seat, perfectly matched bullets, is to remove as many variables as possible. Now you've got to tune it to the barrel, and shoot it in the wind.
 
Some guys like to tune to a chronograph others tune the rifle to what the target tells them. One wins match’s the other only wins internet bragging rights amongst those that don’t know any better.

But keep the FX120 it helps the target.
 
I have been loading for several years using a Chargemaster lite and my backup trusty beam scale. Sometimes coming across a load that gives single digit ES numbers sometimes not. Thinking that really low ES numbers would improve group size by making each round have damn near the exact same velocity, I upgraded my bench. I purchased a really, really nice A&D FX120i scale that will really accurately measure powder. Well after using this scale and loading rounds right down to the kernel of powder to get loads EXACTLY the same the ES numbers don't really change much?? What seems to affect these numbers more is case fill, I'm finding. Primers also affect these numbers but to a way lesser degree.
Sometimes as the charge weight goes down so does the ES numbers like with IMR8208XBR.
After shooting some groups tonight at 300 yds. I'm finding that for the most part the ES numbers really don't help group size, for instance...

shooting my 6BR with 108gr ELD's
Norma 203B 29.2gr / 2778 /ES 9 / SD 3.8 shot a 5 shot group of 3.591
Norma 203B 29.5gr / 2809 / ES 18 / SD 6.5 shot a 5 shot group of 1.619
Shooting Sierra 85gr HPBT
Varget 30.0gr with CCI 450 primer / 3007 / ES 24 / SD 7.4 shot a 10 shot group of 1.325
Varget 30.0gr with Rem 7 1/2 / 3021 / ES 14 / SD 4.2 shot a 10 shot group of 1.506
Thanks Buddy
You just saved me $500 :D
J
 
What distance were you shooting at?

Why do you care about the velocity numbers ? If a load prints good on paper, that's what were after. I dont even own a chronograph. I try to do whatever the paper tells me. The shape of the group(while watching conditions ) will learn you more than any chronograph IMO.

The benefit to being able to load to the kernel, consistently seat, perfectly matched bullets, is to remove as many variables as possible. Now you've got to tune it to the barrel, and shoot it in the wind.
If velocity numbers don't matter then why bother, I have a killer load for my 6BR but its only going 2537fps but it shoots lights out on my range which is 300 yards. I have a feeling that when the distance goes up that load will fall real short. Playing with the same powder I can never get a charge weight that shoots as good going higher and I'll hit pressure before I do.
 
Forget the ES/SD. Listen to the target. At 1k guys are splitting tenths and you can see it. The FX120i is a good scale. You need to weigh that close for 1k. At short range you wont see it. Do not watch the chrony, ES, or speeds, watch the charge and groups. Sometimes you wont see a change in speed but you'll see a change on target. Shoot, pay attention, and read less, IMO.
 
I think that different shooting disciplines require a different set of "needs", if you will. If I were shooting Benchrest at say 1000 yards, or really any FIXED / KNOWN distance that you are going to shoot exclusively at, a chronograph is useless. You simply find the best load that shoots consistently at your particular distance. However, F-Class or especially steel shooting, requires a rifle that shoots pretty dang small at any distance from 300 to 500 to 600 to 800 to 900 to 1000. Some Fullbore or Palma matches require shooting at a minimum of 3 distances in one day. Many F-Class shooters use just 1 or 2 rifles for ALL ranges. This is where a tight E.S. comes into play. There are many, many F-Class shooters that shoot only 1 rifle and it must be capable at everything from 300 to 1000. This requires LOW e.s. spreads so vertical stays tight at any distance. Low e.s.s are NO indicator of an accurate load. However, an accurate load with low e.s.s can be used at any distance!
 
At 100 yards I have had shots that vary 40fps go into the same hole. Don’t know what they would have done at 1000.
 
Forget the ES/SD. Listen to the target. At 1k guys are splitting tenths and you can see it. The FX120i is a good scale. You need to weigh that close for 1k. At short range you wont see it. Do not watch the chrony, ES, or speeds, watch the charge and groups. Sometimes you wont see a change in speed but you'll see a change on target. Shoot, pay attention, and read less, IMO.

Yep. With my most recent build, I did my load development at 500 yards. Even at that distance, extreme spread is going to show up. In the end what happens on the target is all that matters. I took the best load from 500, which was a hair under .5 MOA. When I confirmed zero at 100, it still shot about .5 MOA. I didn’t even chronograph them. Guessed at the velocity from historical data and put that in my software. Trued the velocity at 800 and confirmed dope. Easiest load development I ever did. I still haven’t chronographed it but the vertical on the target tells me ES is going to be low.

John
 
Don’t do much at long range but I had two different loads in a 1000 yard club f class match. One load was doing around 2920 when it was developed and one was 2970. They both did about the same group at 100 and seemed to shoot the same at 1000 but the interesting thing was the 2970s group was almost a full foot higher on the target. So it seems like if you had a big es like 30+ at long range it could really hurt your group.
 
From my experience and perspective ES and/or SD is just at tool, or better stated it's just an indicator, like many other things in our sport of how good your entire loading process is. When used correctly and in correlation with other good practices and tools, it can help narrow down a node or load. But it's not a magic bullet and can't (or shouldn't) be used alone or given too much credence on its own. Concentricity (runout), neck tension, seating pressure consistency, grouping, and many other things are all indicators (or tools) in finding the right node or load for any given barrel for optimal accuracy. You have to treat reloading like taking care of your body, it's a whole package. Focusing on ES/SD too much is like thinking that maintaining an ideal body weight means you don't have to brush your teeth.

I strive to achieve a certain level (around 20) with my ES and once I do I'll move on to other test but will always work to make sure my ES stays in that range no matter what I change in my load.
 
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@Lefty Trigger, if used correctly a chrono can be a very helpful tool. It can help you fine tune a load as well as identify inconsistencies within your loading process and brass prep. If you can average an ES of 20 or lower over a 20 shot string, then your brass prep is solid.
I agree with David that SD/ES numbers reflect brass prep and consistency. It's kind of like runout reflects how your dies and press are working. They may not directly correlate to accuracy or group size, but it's still helpful to strive for good numbers in both regards IMHO.
 
Certain disciplines require loads with lower ES/SD to be optimal, for other disciplines where you are shooting at set ranges, like say 1,000 yard benchrest, you tune your load to that distance and don't even bring out a chronograph.

In disciplines where you are engaging targets throughout a wide range in a day, say PRS/NRL or ELR matches where you can be shooting targets from 100 yards to 1,400+ yards and everywhere in between, having consistent velocity is pretty important.

It wouldn't have as big of an effect on group size as you may think. In the lore of the Houston Warehouse, they determined that you could have a ~100 fps spread (if I remember correctly) in velocity between shots before it would start effecting your groups at 100 yards.

Load ammo to the requirements of your discipline.
 
A few years ago I ran across an interesting study done years back. It was written up as a scientific study, not merely an article in a gun magazine whipped up on a whim. A barrel chambered in .22 LR was mounted in a fixture. Groups were fired at 50 yards. The same ammo was used for all the tests.

A weight was applied to the barrel in different positions. 10 shot groups were fired with the weight in different locations along the barrel. When the weight was positioned in the most favorable spot group size was far better than the original control group with no weight.

The authors surmised that the improved accuracy was due to barrel harmonics, particularly the position of the barrel/muzzle when the bullet exits. It's a timing issue. With the weight positioned just right, the timing of barrel whip was such that a lower velocity bullet would exit at a higher angle, and a lower velocity bullet would exit at a lower angle, thus evening out the verticle dispersion at the target distance.

I don't know if this applies directly to long range centerfire shooting, but I suspect it does to some extent. There is certainly more to a good load in a particular rifle than low ES/SD.

That said, ES/SD isn't BS. Use a ballistic calculator to see how much drop is affected at range by velocity variations. When you start to reach out there for a given cartridge it's considerable.

I'm new to longish range shooting. I've spent considerable effort recently finding a good load for my AR chambered in .223 Wylde. For 10 round strings a LabRadar has been generally showing ES as 30+ish, with SD 15ish. Give or take some. I doubt much better can be done with this cartridge and rifle. This load was worked up at 100 yards distance using several chronographs.

As for standard deviation, if you don't have a reasonably large sample size, SD isn't significant. The SD of 5 rounds means nothing. The ES of 5 or 10 rounds doesn't tell you very much and may even be misleading.

So far, I've only had two opportunities to shoot at longer distances. Last outing, I shot paper for the first time at 600 yards. Verticle for 3 rounds was 1.75". 3 shots on a 6" gong at 405 yards went into a little over 1.5" total spread. I had similar results on my first trip. These are small samples and don't mean much, but things are looking good so far, even with velocity spreads shown by the LabRadar chrono much worse than the OP's numbers. That's my point. Low velocity spreads read by a chronograph don't necessarily mean tight vertical at range.

Minimizing velocity spread involves a combination of factors. Brass consistency and prep matters, but I think a less than ideal load in wonderful brass will still give bad results. I think a good load, as in one that has a wider window of tolerances that produce similar velocities, in merely ok brass will do a better job. Ideally, we'd want an ideal load in excellent brass.

Choose a bullet, powder, brass and primer. Load some rounds with varying charge weights of that powder. Shoot groups using each charge weight. Record the results. Don't be overly trusting of chrono data. We compared my ProChrono with the LabRadar and found significant differences both in spreads and averages. Even the LabRadar is not suited to the small caliber and small base bullets I'm using. I'd trust actual vertical dispersion at longer ranges more than what any chrono says.
 
For starters - we typically are not determining velocity for a statistically significant number of shots. The ES/SD from a 5-shot group velocity determination simply doesn't carry much statistical weight. Unfortunately, most of us don't want to burn out our barrels doing load development, so we are usually forced to work with sub-optimal velocity sample sizes.

Second - low ES/SD may not mean much if your load is "out of the optimal window". It has been clearly demonstrated that the effect known as "positive compensation" occurs, and that it can be responsible for lesser vertical dispersion at long distance than would be predicted solely from ES/SD values. The short explanation of positive compensation is that bullets with slightly higher velocity leave the barrel slightly earlier in the harmonic cycle, when the muzzle is earlier in its upward travel and therefore isn't pointing upward quite as much, so they exit the bore with a lower launch angle. Bullets with slightly slower velocity leave the muzzle a tick later when it is pointing at a higher launch angle. Because the slower bullets exit the bore with a higher launch angle, the arrive on target at a similar vertical height as the slightly faster bullets that exited the bore at a slightly lower launch angle.

The keys for positive compensation are that A) it doesn't just happen...it has to be specifically tuned in to the rifle barrel harmonics via proper load development, and B) it apparently can occur over a velocity range (ES) of as much as 20-25 fps or so.

There are a couple take-home points from this. The first is that as long as the load is properly tuned, it is possible to experience the benefits of positive compensation without being forced to maintain extreme spreads under 10 fps. The second point is that when a load with an ES in the ~15-20 fps range shoots tiny groups and is likely benefitting from positive compensation, but a load with a much lower ES of 5-10 fps shoots much larger groups, it is unlikely that ES has anything to do with why the load with the lower ES/SD shot larger groups. In fact, positive compensation in a properly tuned load should occur the same whether the ES is 15-20 fps, or 5-10 fps. So the likelihood would be that either the load with the lower ES/SD that shoots the larger groups is either not properly tuned with respect to barrel harmonics and positive compensation, AND/OR the sample size of the groups used to generate both ES/SD values are simply not optimal statistically. In other words, would the ES/SD values of the load that shot larger groups really be any different from the the load that shot tighter groups if something like 25 or 50 shots had been fired?

The final consideration is that different types of competition shooting events may require somewhat different reloading approaches. For example, F-Class shooters typically fire 20-25+ shot strings in a single relay, and will shoot 3 relays during the course of a single day's match shooting (i.e. early morning to mid-afternoon). It is not uncommon for the temperature to change dramatically during that time period. Trying to excel in F-Class competition at 1000 yd with a load that has shown 20-25 fps ES (or more) for 5-shot groups during routine load development will be an exercise in frustration. In fact, such a load will likely exhibit an extreme spread of more like 30+ fps over a typical 25-shot string. The loads we develop for F-Class don't typically possess quite the precision necessary for top 1000 yd Benchrest competitors, but the velocity needs to remain relatively stable over the longs strings of fire, throughout the match/day. So F-Class shooters generally tend to pay a little more attention to velocity and ES/SD data. It's pretty simple really, your reloading approach needs to work well for the chosen shooting discipline, and there is usually some latitude within any approach that can work successfully.
 
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the improved accuracy was due to barrel harmonics, particularly the position of the barrel/muzzle when the bullet exits. It's a timing issue.
That's called "positive compensation" and has been realized for over a century, first documented by the British well over a century ago.

Bullets leave on the muzzle axis upswing near the highest angle above the line of sight.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

Some people put adjustable weights near the barrel muzzle to adjust the muzzle axis frequency to do that. Then adjust them for different ranges with the same load.

Browning tried to upset this apple cart originally claiming their BOSS tuning weight adjusted the barrel whip so bullets left when the barrel was straight midpoint in its whip cycle, either up or down swing. Now they claim the BOSS tunes the barrel vibrations so bullets leave when the barrel's still at either the top or bottom of its cycle. As the muzzle axis vibrates vertically the same frequency for every shot, barrel time and muzzle velocity must have zero spread for that to happen. Another falsehood in the firearms industry.
 
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