Smallbore F Class Rules

[brshtr]

Since becoming match director for my club’s NRA smallbore prone program, I’ve done my best to promote F-Class SB. In my opinion, anything that gets people out to matches is a good thing, assuming, of course, that everything is done safely. I am all for getting people to shoot F-SBR.

I don’t know the basis for the single-load rule— it was probably written before I was born—but I really doubt it was written to put repeaters at a disadvantage. An experienced smallbore shooter, shooting a single-shot rifle, who has average manual dexterity, can reload nearly as fast as someone feeding from a magazine, if they so desire. Re-aiming the rifle takes longer than reloading. I doubt that those shooting single-shots would feel threatened by those shooting repeaters.

Bear in mind: in an NRA smallbore match, each card is 20 record shots plus sighters. How many rounds can you fit in a magazine? Does the Vudoo magazine hold 30 rounds? If not, you’ll need to load multiple magazines and change them out periodically.

I have no opinion on the wisdom of the current rule. I’m simply saying that being able to shoot a repeater may not be as big an advantage as first meets the eye, and as a single-load shooter I wouldn’t feel disadvantaged relative to a repeater shooter.

Dave Rabin

 

[davidjoe]

I think what OP is saying is that the rules arguably don’t let you put even a single round in the magazine. The magazine lips stick up too high to just drop a round on top of it and close the bolt. The bullet won’t align with the bore. I don’t have one but that’s my understanding. I don’t know if Mark was suggesting loading the mags full, but it wouldn’t affect single loaders if the time stayed generous.

From the different rule quoted above:


“I went back and read the ASSA F-SBR rules regarding loading (ref: Section 17.3.1.6 and Section 5.2), which reads:
17.3.1.6.For all events, rifles will be single loaded per Section 5.2.

5.2. Single Loading
5.2.1. In all events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time. Magazines or clips are not allowed to be loaded with cartridges, but may be used to facilitate single loading of the rifle.”

On rereading I myself don’t know whether the rule allows single round loading in the magazine or just it’s “facilitation” to sit the bullet on top of it to not fall out. Is the plural of “cartridges” literal so that one round is ok. IDK, kind of unclear. Ned probably has the right idea above, that you can, but it’s tedious.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Just like you stated that the CZ is a pain in the ass to feed the Vudoo is control round feed and impossible without a ultra pain the ass adapter to add in. There are guys who have purpose built Vudoo's with the adapter in place. But guys like me a and many other will shoot F-class on a Saturday and a PRS style match on Sunday. I say this because next week i have a Sat and Sun day match. I have the adapter to install but I am not, it means me having to pull the rifle out of my chassis, pulling the ejector and replacing it with this adapter putting the gun back in the chassis and sighting it back in. Then after the match pulling everything apart taking it out, putting the rifle back together and sighting it back in...PAIN IN THE ASS. ONCE AGAIN LET ME STATE THIS FOR THE RECORD AGAIN SINCE PEOPLE NO MATTER WHAT JUMP ON THE SINGLE FEED BANDWAGON THINKING I AM ARE TALKING ABOUT WANTING CHANGE IN BOTH CENTER FIRE AND RIMFIRE....THIS IS A RIMFIRE ONLY PROBLEM....Also I don't feel there is any advantage...Look you want to shoot fast good for you. Our ABRA benchrest this past Saturday was won by the only single feed rifle there. Did some of the guys finish before him, yes but I had a repeater and darn near took as much time as David did.

I was responding to Lesley's post above, who clearly thinks shooting fast IS an advantage in rimfire.

The bottom line is that it's wise to buy the right tool for the job, or else make do with what you have. The single feed rule existed before you purchased your Vudoo, but now you want to change the rimfire rules to allow you to shoot a non-compliant rifle. You are certainly welcome to try to get the rule changed, but I suspect it will be an uphill battle.

 

[brshtr]

I think what OP is saying is that the rules arguably don’t let you put even a single round in the magazine. The magazine lips stick up too high to just drop a round on top of it and close the bolt. The bullet won’t align with the bore. I don’t have one but that’s my understanding. I don’t know if Mark was suggesting loading the mags full, but it wouldn’t affect single loaders if the time stayed generous.

On rereading I myself don’t know whether the rule allows single round loading in the magazine or just it’s “facilitation” to sit the bullet on top of it to not fall out. Ned probably has the right idea above, that you can, but it’s tedious.

Here's the rule:

"10.1.6 Loading in Slow Fire - In all slow fire events, the rifle will be loaded with only one cartridge at a time."

There's nothing in the rule disallowing the use of a magazine. In the absence of contrary instruction from the NRA, as a match director I'd let people use magazine-fed rifles provided that only one round at a time was in the magazine. I would not, though, allow use of tube-fed magazines because of the difficulty in verifying loaded status.

The NRA rules provide 20 minutes for 20 record shots and unlimited sighters. That's plenty of time; hardly anybody I've seen uses up all that time, and those that use a lot of time are doing it because they're waiting on the wind, not because of how long it takes to reload.

With a Vudoo, is it possible to press a round into the magazine without removing the magazine?

 

[Mark Self]

Ned I have the right tool for the Job! It's not single feed! Why, because I shoot multiple disciplines. The world of shooting is growing why not make small changes to help it grow. I have been shooting competitively for 35+ years. I have been a Match Director for 20 years, I have been running a match a week since 2009. I am a true believer in learning ever discipline I can. I have been involved in USPSA since 1987, IDPA, Sportsman team challenge, SASS cowboy, PRS and NRL and NRA..Everyone one of those organization made major changes that pissed off there old guard to survive! except NRA! If you want to see another Shooting discipline die just stop looking at the bigger picture. I shot bullseye when I was in HS, I was told by my coach that those crazy guys running around with pistols would never make it..It was dumb! We have not had NRA bullseye in southern Texas since the 80's, but guess what the USPSA guys my coach were talking about are alive and still have multiple clubs in our area with 30+ shooters at the club matches!...Guys this not the old days, smallbore is being replaced at the speed of sound by more sniper style shooting. Ned you are correct, it will be an uphill battle. But at the end of the day I am still going to have an Outlaw Smallbore F-class match! I will hand out cards to my guys if they want saying how they are classed.

 

[brshtr]

One more thing: the NRA Georgia State Smallbore Championship will be held September 28-29 at River Bend Gun Club in Dawsonville, Georgia, with a practice session available on Friday afternoon, September 27. We will have both sling shooters and F-Class shooters, with awards in each of those divisions.

Attached is the match program. My contact information is in the program, in case you have any questions.

I'm told we'll have some F-Class shooters who are shooting Vudoos. They, like anyone else shooting a rifle with a magazine, will be required to load one round at a time and to remove the magazine from the rifle upon the ceasefire command. We welcome those of you who shoot Vudoos to come and shoot with us.

Dave Rabin

 

[Mark Self]

One more thing: the NRA Georgia State Smallbore Championship will be held September 28-29 at River Bend Gun Club in Dawsonville, Georgia, with a practice session available on Friday afternoon, September 27. We will have both sling shooters and F-Class shooters, with awards in each of those divisions.

Attached is the match program. My contact information is in the program, in case you have any questions.

I'm told we'll have some F-Class shooters who are shooting Vudoos. They, like anyone else shooting a rifle with a magazine, will be required to load one round at a time and to remove the magazine from the rifle upon the ceasefire command. We welcome those of you who shoot Vudoos to come and shoot with us.

Dave Rabin

Good Call Dave!

 

[Peebles24]

The way i read the rule, as long as you load one round at a time it doesn't matter if it has a magazine or not. I think part of the reason for this is to slow down the shooter so they cant pick a wind condition and rap off as many shots as they can as fast as they can. In centerfire f open there is a 7 second delay between shots specifically for this reason. I dont see any reason a magazine fed rifle is used as long as they drop in one at a time.

Just my opinion but the rule does not specifically say no use of a magazine.

Chad

 

[brshtr]

For those who are not familiar with NRA F-Class Smallbore, I've attached a description of the program; it also has a link to the NRA rules. Ignore the dates in there; I wrote it last year.

Dave Rabin

 

[BP1]

The way i read the rule, as long as you load one round at a time it doesn't matter if it has a magazine or not. I think part of the reason for this is to slow down the shooter so they cant pick a wind condition and rap off as many shots as they can as fast as they can. In centerfire f open there is a 7 second delay between shots specifically for this reason. I dont see any reason a magazine fed rifle is used as long as they drop in one at a time.

Just my opinion but the rule does not specifically say no use of a magazine.

Chad

The only time there is a 7 second delay in CF F/class is if they are shot on etargets otherwise you can shoot as fast as your target pullers are and your score keeper pays attention.

 

[Peebles24]

The only time there is a 7 second delay in CF F/class is if they are shot on etargets otherwise you can shoot as fast as your target pullers are and your score keeper pays attention.

We shoot electronic at Atterbury, and really any scorer by hand would take 7 seconds im sure.

 

[LESLEY]

I was responding to Lesley's post above, who clearly thinks shooting fast IS an advantage in rimfire.

The bottom line is that it's wise to buy the right tool for the job, or else make do with what you have. The single feed rule existed before you purchased your Vudoo, but now you want to change the rimfire rules to allow you to shoot a non-compliant rifle. You are certainly welcome to try to get the rule changed, but I suspect it will be an uphill battle.

You are correct. I believe having a repeater and shooting through conditions will give you a higher score. Why oppose repeaters if single loading will produce a higher score. You say make do with what you have. You can make do with what you have I want to win and not make do. If single loading is so good why do people like you oppose it. As far as changing the rules . We Can wait. The old school rules will die with the old school shooters. As I have said many times if single loading is so great [why are you all so] worried about repeaters. Look it this way you are on here posting how repeater is no advantage. But you oppose shooting against one?

 

[LESLEY]

it looks like people want to limit progress. I know this will sound bad but if you can not afford to play the game. Find a new game to play

 

[brshtr]

You are correct. I believe having a repeater and shooting through conditions will give you a higher score. Why oppose repeaters if single loading will produce a higher score. You say make do with what you have. You can make do with what you have I want to win and not make do. If single loading is so good why do people like you oppose it. As far as changing the rules . We Can wait. The old school rules will die with the old school shooters. As I have said many times if single loading is so great. why are yall so worried about repeaters. Look it this way you are on here posting how repeater is no advantage. But you oppose shooting aginst one

So far, I haven't seen anyone say they oppose repeaters, nor have I seen anyone say they're worried about repeaters. The discussion has been in terms of what is presently permissible under the present rules. If the NRA or ASSA change their rules, I'd have no problem shooting my old, slow, single-shot while others shoot as fast as they can cycle the bolt and press the trigger, provided they are being safe.

 

[1813benny]

To All:
I guess the thread has transitioned from stating positions, observations and facts to more of an emotional back and forth rant to the point that the use of profanity was used. I will not quote post #52 out of proper decorum.

I apologize to those competitors and match directors across the US to whom I sent the link to this thread in preparation for offline discussions regarding the F-SBR rules and potential use of repeaters.

Note that no decision on the use of repeaters has been made at this time. Any future change to ASSA rules regarding this issue would be via a formal announcement on multiple on-line forums and social media.

Regards,
Ken
ASSA Secretary / Treasurer

 

[Ned Ludd]

You are correct. I believe having a repeater and shooting through conditions will give you a higher score. Why oppose repeaters if single loading will produce a higher score. You say make do with what you have. You can make do with what you have I want to win and not make do. If single loading is so good why do people like you oppose it. As far as changing the rules . We Can wait. The old school rules will die with the old school shooters. As I have said many times if single loading is so great. why are yall so worried about repeaters. Look it this way you are on here posting how repeater is no advantage. But you oppose shooting aginst one

it looks like people want to limit progress. I know this will sound bad but if you can not afford to play the game. Find a new game to play

Wow...really? I can't say I've ever personally come across someone with such an unsportsmanlike attitude. Perhaps you ought to take some of your own advice and either spend some money to purchase a single fire rimfire setup that is fully compatible with the existing rules, or find a new game to play.

Similar arguments have been used for years in centerfire F-Class with regard to suppressors, muzzle brakes, and probably a few other devices, which, by the way, are currently still not legal. You basically want the sport to change to accommodate you and the setup you currently have, rather than to work within the context of the existing rules. Good luck with that approach. Do you really find it so difficult to fathom why those that do compete within the existing format might resent that? And why wait until those folks "die off"? Start your your own competition now and do exactly as you wish. Unfortunately, I get it...that wouldn't be the path of least resistance (or effort) for you.

 

[BP1]

Wow...really? I can't say I've ever personally come across someone with such an unsportsmanlike attitude. Perhaps you ought to take some of your own advice and either spend some money to purchase a single fire rimfire setup that is fully compatible with the existing rules, or find a new game to play.

Similar arguments have been used for years in centerfire F-Class with regard to suppressors, muzzle brakes, and probably a few other devices, which, by the way, are currently still not legal. You basically want the sport to change to accommodate you and the setup you currently have, rather than to work within the context of the existing rules. Good luck with that approach. Do you really find it so difficult to fathom why those that do compete within the existing format might resent that? And why wait until those folks "die off"? Start your your own competition now and do exactly as you wish. Unfortunately, I get it...that wouldn't be the path of least resistance (or effort) for you.

Although I agree with everything you are saying it would be nice to have some different rules for RF f/class since the fella with a mag fed RF doesn’t have the luxury of popping in a bob sled like one does with a CF.

 

[swd]

I can understand both side of the argument. But if there is a large group that wants to shoot but is being eliminated because of the rules at the very least give them their own class to shoot in. The whole idea is to build shooting sports not limit them.

At Sacramento we have a large amount of PRS type tactical shooters. So we made our own sub group F Tactical. Any PRS style rifle is welcome. If they have muzzle brakes we put them all together at one end of the berm. It’s a pretty popular class. Sometimes there’s as many Tac as Open shooters. It builds participation and some come over to Open and FTR. The point is accommodate guys that want to shoot when possible.

 

[brshtr]

There are two sets of rules in play here: the ASSA rules and the NRA rules. This thread has already attracted the attention of the ASSA but is unlikely to attract the attention of the NRA. If you want to change the single-load NRA rule, I suggest you write to them:

National Rifle Association of America
Competitive Shooting Division
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax Va 22030

Dave Rabin

 

[Jdne5b]

There are two sets of rules in play here: the ASSA rules and the NRA rules. This thread has already attracted the attention of the ASSA but is unlikely to attract the attention of the NRA. If you want to change the single-load NRA rule, I suggest you write to them:

National Rifle Association of America
Competitive Shooting Division
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax Va 22030

Dave Rabin

Might be better off sending your comments to someone on the smallbore committee (or is it lumped with Highpower?), rather than a black hole of an understaffed office.