Smallbore F Class Rules

[Ned Ludd]

Although I agree with everything you are saying it would be nice to have some different rules for RF f/class since the fella with a mag fed RF doesn’t have the luxury of popping in a bob sled like one does with a CF.

Otis - I totally get that, I really do. The key here is to come up with a solution that allows shooters using repeating rifles to participate, but that doesn't change the game for the shooters that are accustomed to using single loading. It is somewhat analogous to the notion of using e-targets in centerfire F-Class with no delay, which allows one to machine gun rounds at the target during a specific "condition" and can totally change the way participants might approach shooting in a given wind condition. Given the susceptibility of rimfire bullets to wind conditions and the fact that there are no target pullers to slow down the firing cadence, I can easily imagine that having a repeater might be a big advantage in certain wind conditions. If the rules are changed to allow the use of repeaters, then the shooters with single shot rifles might be put at a disadvantage, at least some of the time. Should they then be forced to go out buy an expensive new repeater rifle to remain competitive? The rules can cut both ways.

In my mind, there are a couple changes that could satisfy both groups. One would simply be to lobby for the creation of a "repeater" class that is separate from single shot rifles, as swd mentioned above. There are plenty of precedents for creating a new classification within an existing shooting discipline. An alternative to that would be the use of pair-firing, which would necessarily slow the firing cadence, regardless of the type of rifle used. Of these, I suspect that creating a new "repeater" class would require the least amount of effort and be the least disruptive to shooters accustomed to shooting either type of rifle, while allowing anyone to participate. Regardless, the way to go about lobbying to make such a change does not involve dropping F-bombs or talking about existing competitors "dying off", which I find to be pretty offensive. A calm and reasonable discussion is far more likely to produce results that are satisfactory to everyone.

 

[Mark Self]

Ned I like your idea of another division except having to add repeater TR and Repeater Open. But truthfully I don't think that would be bad.

 

[BP1]

Ned I like your idea of another division except having to add repeater TR and Repeater Open. But truthfully I don't think that would be bad.

I also like the thought of pair firing.

 

[davidjoe]

We have to think about this, though. FClass rules don’t specifically require bolt action rifles, therefore any loaded magazine change for small-bore in contemplation of the Vudoos could lead to some extremely fast shooting through a condition, with semis.

So, are we thinking that far ahead, because that’s a very different proposition, still.

 

[brshtr]

We have to think about this, though. FClass rules don’t specifically require bolt action rifles, therefore any loaded magazine change for small-bore in contemplation of the Vudoos could lead to some extremely fast shooting through a condition, with semis.

So, are we thinking that far ahead, because that’s a very different proposition, still.

That’s a very good point. And then semi owners would use high-capacity magazines that enable them to shoot sighters and 20 record shots without a magazine change, and then the owners of guns that don’t have hi-cap mags would complain, and then they’d want to change the rules, or create a different class based on mag capacity, or . . . well, you get the idea.

I sense two goals being advanced here. First, there are people with repeaters who’d be content to single-load if their action/magazine enabled them to do so. Second, there are people who want to be able to shoot really fast. I get the impression that the latter outnumber the former.

So far, no one has answered the question I posed a few days ago: whether a Vudoo owner can press a round into the mag without removing the mag. If they can, then they can shoot under the present rules without having to remove the mag after every shot. If they can’t, then they can buy a $70 single-shot mag and install it. Someone with a $3000+ rifle can afford a $70 mag. In fact, someone shooting match-grade ammunition is going to spend that much on ammunition just for one match. I understand it’s a hassle to install the mag. But it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to make a one-time expenditure of $70 and go through a small hassle in order to shoot in a match. Is it more reasonable to change the way the sport has been shot for decades in order to accommodate people who don’t want to do those two things? I fear the tail may be wagging the dog here.

If people want to be able to shoot really fast, I suspect the best solution is to create a sport designed around that goal. You could have separate classes for action types and magazine capacities. And putting on those matches would be a test bed to see how many people really want to compete that way on a regular basis. If it’s something people will want to do only once or twice a year, I see no reason to change the existing smallbore rules, but if you get 50 people showing up every month of the year, NRA may take notice.

In the meantime, Vudoo owners are welcome to shoot in the eight monthly matches we hold each year at River Bend, as long as your mag holds no more than one round at a time. Who knows—if you beat non-Vudoo owners, you may gain some converts.

Dave Rabin

 

[ccollier]

So far, no one has answered the question I posed a few days ago: whether a Vudoo owner can press a round into the mag without removing the mag.

Dave,

You can not press a round into the mag with out removing it from the gun.

Shane

 

[Gilbert Garza]

So far, no one has answered the question I posed a few days ago: whether a Vudoo owner can press a round into the mag without removing the mag. If they can, then they can shoot under the present rules without having to remove the mag after every shot. If they can’t, then they can buy a $70 single-shot mag and install it. Someone with a $3000+ rifle can afford a $70 mag. In fact, someone shooting match-grade ammunition is going to spend that much on ammunition just for one match. I understand it’s a hassle to install the mag. But it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to make a one-time expenditure of $70 and go through a small hassle in order to shoot in a match. Is it more reasonable to change the way the sport has been shot for decades in order to accommodate people who don’t want to do those two things? I fear the tail may be wagging the dog here.


Dave Rabin

And once again you’re focused on the new kid on the block. I don’t think the Vudoo is the key in this conversation, or at least it shouldn’t be. No you can’t feed into the mag without removing the mag. Yes the $70 follower is a very easy part to buy, a pain but not a problem to install.

I think the part that everyone is missing are the 94,000,000, yes 94 MILLION Ruger 10/22’s and only the government knows how many other repeaters. If you’re worried a 10/22 firing as fast as it can will beat you’re f-open rimfire rifle...you may want to upgrade your rifle. Accuracy through volume has never been the definition of accuracy. I know I can fire my centerfire rifle on a 10” plate at 430yds 12 in just under 1min, 60secs....it’s 10”. If you look at how ABRA got around this problem, it’s genius, they made 20 targets for score. It’s a 20rd match with most shooting 2-4 relays so 40-80rd match. On a big 14x17 target they place 20 separate targets, each get scored individual then added for total. In the matches I’ve witness, none shot semi-full automatics.

 

[davidjoe]

There aren’t 94M 10/22’s. There’s only something like 300M total firearms in the country. That would be 1:3 firearms constituting just 10/22’s.

This reference says 5M.

 

[Gilbert Garza]

There aren’t 94M 10/22’s. There’s only something like 300M total firearms in the country. That would be 1:3 firearms constituting just 10/22’s.

This reference says 5M.


View attachment 1122535

LOL you believe wiki , none the less I was using that as an exaggeration. And it’s closer to 393 million total firearms in the US.

You too focused on the wrong thing, there is a crap load of repeaters that could be participating in these matches across the country, but cause of a simple rule and fear of being beat, ruled them out.

 

[davidjoe]

LOL you believe wiki , none the less I was using that as an exaggeration. And it’s closer to 393 million total firearms in the US.

You too focused on the wrong thing, there is a crap load of repeaters that could be participating in these matches across the country, but cause of a simple rule and fear of being beat, ruled them out.

There are RF matches that have such short, close range relays that only 1022 builds can get their shots off. The best of those guns (I have some decent ones) are only slightly less accurate, but multiples quicker than a big single shot or Vudoo.

If I were to ask them to expand the time frame to comfortably accommodate a single shot 40-X for example, they would object. I think rightly. Indeed it would be hard for them to ever beat a single shot or Vudoo if time were not a factor. Can you imagine the frowns as they all finish and wait on a guy to poke through a shot a minute, but never missing?

So to FClass, variable wind is a definite factor, but I think forcing guys to read wind was a goal. Custom 1022’s are only marginally less accurate than match single feeds. The point drops in FClass are mainly about the wind changes, not sheer precision. I think a great 1022 in varying wind could overcome a more accurate rifle delayed by loading and bolt operation, by quickly shooting a condition.

 

[BP1]

Well I shot my first RF match today and I used my savage BTVss with a 5 round mag and I can tell y’all I did not have any advantage in fact I think I was the one at a disadvantage having to stop and come off the gun to load the mag every 5 shots.That was some of the best fun I’ve had shooting in a long time.