• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Small primer benefits ?

I believe David Tubb did some testing and chose LR primer for his 6XC.
But for underbore competitive cartridges, I agree with Donovan. They rely on extreme peak pressures as the ultimate work-around for many things, and so their case heads need the strength provided in SR primers.

6PPC, 30BR, and 6.5x47L are underbore.
A 6XC is not and neither is a 260AI. Extreme pressures in these are not viable regardless of primer, so here it's a matter of igniting SLOWER powders.
A 308 is underbore too. But IMO, it's hopeless to learn anything from.
 
As you see, there are many opinions on this issue. Most of the benchrest cases in use today, based on the 6 BR or 220 Russian, utilize the small primer pocket. Also Lapua .223 brass does. I suppose there is pure scientific evidence somewhere to explain why, but seeing as how I've never met a subject I didn't have an opinion on, here it is on this subject.

A small primer pocket removes less material from the base or "head" of the case, making it stronger.

A small primer usually (though not always) has a smaller flash hole (.062 vs. .080+).

The smaller flash hole leads to more controlled ignition and less disruption from the primer.

The smaller flash hole reduces the amount of burned gases flowing back into the primer pocket and thereby allows the case to handle higher pressure. (Some of the loads I see at a benchrest match, you don't even want to know what the pressures are!*)

I have no scientific evidence to support any of this. It all falls into the category of "makes sense to me". Hope it does to you.

* As a footnote to BR load pressures, I recently bought a 6 PPC from a fellow shooter who said he would throw in 200 cases that had been fired 3 or 4 times. What a bonanza! Problem is, every one of these cases I can seat a primer with the tip of my finger, no priming tool necessary. Lord only knows what pressures this brass has seen.
 
Which primer are those shooting the palma cases for the .308 having the best results?

I have a pretty good supply of 7 1/2's but reading those are too hot? Also have the standard CCI, 205 (not the match) and a Seller and Bellot. Any luck with these I have on hand?
 
BY1983/Laurie - I am curious about your results or knowledge in the .308 and SRP. In NZ we are just starting to talk about the SRP brass. Something I am trying to understand - if guys are using it to push FPS or for the improved case life/numbers.

IME with a small case like the 6br and lapua brass it can take enormous pressures (according to quick load and the magneto chrony) but the catch is sticky bolt lift after 6+ firings, primer pockets are fine. I would like to know if the guys that are using SRP in .308 that are chasing FPS have a similar experience or if they are simply using it for better numbers and/or case life.

Winter temps can be down around 6 cel but summer its more like 10-12 in the morning through to 30 cel on a hot day. I had discounted SRP for this reason but it sounds like a rethink might be in order.

TIA
 
There seem to be three benefits.

First, that originally pursued by the US Palma Teams - to reduce velocity spreads. So, most top F/TR shooters are now using these cases even with 155s and faster burning powders such as 8208 XBR and H4895. The exhaustive tests those teams carried out suggested a third reduction in ES / SD with the 155gn Palma MK and VarGet, and I'd reckon that's a fair assessment of what happens in this and similar combinations.

Second, the velocity issue. This was most appreciated here in the UK initially by the 210gn enthusiasts in F/TR. No doubt about it, if you want to shoot 200s and heavier with slow-burning powders (by 308 standards), these are the cases to use. 210s, and now for the minority who've adopted them, the 200gn, 215gn and 230gn Berger Hybrids are being driven to very impressive MVs using Viht N550, and less frequently Alliant Re17 without any nasty or unwanted side effects. Early on, the sceptics said that these loads must be running at proof level pressures and that woe would ultimately afflict the sinners, but not at all after two if not three seasons. My personal opinion - no proof - is that the combination, of which the small flash-hole is a key element, changes the charge burn pattern in some way for the better, maybe flattening and extending the pressure curve.

Third the life issue. When I shot 155gn Scenars at ~3,075 fps using N540 and then 185gn Berger BTs at ~2,800 fps over N550 from a 30-inch suitably throated barrel, I'd either junk or relagate to lower pressure short-range loads standard Lapua or Norma brass at five to six firings with primer pockets now on the loose side. Running the 155.5gn Berger BT at 3,050 fps over 8208 XBR in small primer brass, I'm at half a dozen firings with some case lots and pockets are subjectively as tight as when new. Reputedly, some of the early heavy bullet adopters are now well into double figures on loadings and not seeing any problems at all. Lapua Palma brass is the best argument I know for case annealing - the front end will need attention long before the back end wears out.

So far as extraction problems go, I've not had any, and I've not heard of any to date from others. But, I've yet to pass the half dozen firings mark, and my 155.5/3,050 fps load is mild compared to many being currently used.

Temperature wise, I get nervous about Palma brass loads when the thermometer dips to around 5-deg C. However, I suspect this is at least partly affected by powder choice. The US Palma Teams tests included putting (155 / VarGet) ammo in a freezer overnight and still getting good results. With my original Viht tests, N150 was unaffected by ambient temperatures ~2-3-deg C while N140 and N550 were. I suspect that ADI / Hodgdon powders (including IMR-8208 XBR) aren't particularly (cold) temperature affected so this brass will still work fine just above freezing.

Most F/TR shooters here using this brass prime it with the F205M. I've used the CCI-BR4 alone. I have a lot of them and found them a bit too hot for my long-range .223 Rem 90gn VLD and Re15 / VarGet loads. They gave around 30-40 fps more in this cartridge than either the CCI-450 SRM or my favourite by far, the old PMC (Russian Murom) SRM which we can no longer get in the UK under any name. In fact getting any SRM or SR BR primer is virtually impossible here and has been for maybe 12 months.
 
6BRinNZ said:
Thanks Laurie - one final question...are they partnering the SRP with a tight base die and chamber spec?

I don't know about the former, but I doubt it. (I use a Forster Bushing-Bump sizer myself, and never full-length size my brass during its life in a single rifle.) Minimum SAAMI chambers are the norm, that's all in that direction.
 
6BRinNZ

I did have a response typed but it obviously never went through on the iphone.

The F class standard shooters here (limited to 223 or 308 and palma bullets, rifle weight, trigger weight and powder types) dont seem to do much in the way of tuning like we would for an FO gun. They basically know that winning rifles run between 45.6 and 46.4gr 2208 (varget) with a 155.5 berger fullbore. However they used to complain about vertical in the LR cases. Now they say they dont have to tune vertical out of the loads. Whether that is definitely due to better spread and SD, or just grouping wise Im not sure. I dare say most of them dont do much in terms of load tuning due to the background of palma shooters using scopes on thier rifles and shooting them as F class standard. Palma you only need to hit the 5 ring to make a possible score, where we have the 6 ring and X ring. F class standard shooters do have guns that work very well and if they drive them right they can match FO shooters, though its fairly rare to see that due to the ballistic advantage of FO. Another thing they say is the SR cases do last alot longer than the LR cases when pushing these high loads. Most bump the shoulder back 1 thou when sizing and have no turn chambers. The top guys that I know use redding 308 body dies then a lee collet die (with pin ground down to suit small flash hole) for neck sizing.

Basically everything that Laurie has said is fairly similar for here. I dont shoot 223 or 308 with them but in my mid range FO barrel I use them in 260 Imp format and they gave me a spread of around 13fps for 10 shots. More than accurate enough for high scores and good X count in FO.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,047
Messages
2,188,942
Members
78,678
Latest member
Janusz
Back
Top