Sleeve Bolt or not?
- Thread starter Hondo64d
- Start date
tenring
Most gunsmiths, both pro and ams, make and use gauges to measure the clearance between bolt face and cone or counterbore. You can measure it for yourself in a couple of simple ways.
1) Add a layer of masking tape to the front of the bolt. Close bolt. If you do not feel contact, add another layer. Continue until you feel contact. Then remove and measure the tape thickness. This is best done with the bolt guts removed.
2) Cut a small piece of soft solder and stick one end in the FP hole. Bend the other end over the bolt nose. Trim off any excess. Close the bolt,it will take some force). Remove the solder and measure the thickness where the bolt has compressed it.
Back to my original posts re: fitting the bolt nose to the counterbore on Rem 700 actions - I guess I wasn't really clear on what I meant. Neither the front face of the bolt or the front of the locking lugs contact the barrel counterbore. You leave the nominal .010" clearance at these points. The bolt nose is fitted to the counterbore for a slip fit which accomplishes the same thing as a front bolt sleeve, only better.
I admit that I was skeptical at first and asked the same question, "Won't that effect accuracy by setting up bad vibrations?" The answer the old gunsmith gave me was, "Who says?" I had to admit that I couldn't answer his question.
So, I say to you guys, "Who says?" I have done quite a few Remington actions this way,he has done hundreds) and I have yet to see bad results.
Ray
Most gunsmiths, both pro and ams, make and use gauges to measure the clearance between bolt face and cone or counterbore. You can measure it for yourself in a couple of simple ways.
1) Add a layer of masking tape to the front of the bolt. Close bolt. If you do not feel contact, add another layer. Continue until you feel contact. Then remove and measure the tape thickness. This is best done with the bolt guts removed.
2) Cut a small piece of soft solder and stick one end in the FP hole. Bend the other end over the bolt nose. Trim off any excess. Close the bolt,it will take some force). Remove the solder and measure the thickness where the bolt has compressed it.
Back to my original posts re: fitting the bolt nose to the counterbore on Rem 700 actions - I guess I wasn't really clear on what I meant. Neither the front face of the bolt or the front of the locking lugs contact the barrel counterbore. You leave the nominal .010" clearance at these points. The bolt nose is fitted to the counterbore for a slip fit which accomplishes the same thing as a front bolt sleeve, only better.
I admit that I was skeptical at first and asked the same question, "Won't that effect accuracy by setting up bad vibrations?" The answer the old gunsmith gave me was, "Who says?" I had to admit that I couldn't answer his question.
So, I say to you guys, "Who says?" I have done quite a few Remington actions this way,he has done hundreds) and I have yet to see bad results.
Ray
lynn said:
Lynn
That's 3 questions.
The only time you can fit a bolt nose is when installing a new barrel. Factory bolts and barrel counterbores leave a LOT of room. I first true the action. Then true the bolt locking lugs, and nose. Install a bolt bushing at the rear. Then thread and counterbore the barrel to fit everything else. When you're done everything should be straight.
A trued Remington action is just as good as any custom IMHO. Maybe even better with a big long action sleeve like a Beginski because you can tune them with the 3 action screws. But I only have one because I find them awkward after years of shooting a RB LP. But that is me. A few years ago I watched Billy Copelin set the HG 1000 yd record with a Remington and he was like a machine gun. I wish I could do that.
I think good barrels are more important than good bullets. I've formed this opinion after years of shooting point-blank. Getting on a relay when there is no wind is most important of all.
Ray
Man this thread is getting beaten to death!
.005 bolt clearance is plenty, both ways... recess and shoulder to bolt head.
If your gun has issues with this amount of clearance, you need to learn to clean it.
On alledged "tactical" rifles or something someone expects to drop into the mud or bury in sand, I fit them with .010 clearance. Factory Remingtons are usually .010 -.015. I've some with more clearance, never seen one with less.
Back to the original topic.... I've "bushed" maybe a hundred bolts, I used to bush them for my personal rifles but quit doing that at least 10yrs ago.
My personal opinion and experience is that this procedure adds zip, zero, nada to the performance of the rifle. My opinion used to be that "it couldn't hurt, and maybe it does help shrink groups a tiny bit" But I've seen no evidence of it and while some customers have said it "seemed" to shoot better, the vast majority of them have said they like the "tight fit" they've seen nothing on the target..
I still do them, but I think it's a waste of money. But it's not my money being spent and if the customer wants the bolt bushed, I bush it.
Spend your money on more practice. you'd be surprised how many rifles shoot better when the trigger jockey is working properly.
.005 bolt clearance is plenty, both ways... recess and shoulder to bolt head.
If your gun has issues with this amount of clearance, you need to learn to clean it.
On alledged "tactical" rifles or something someone expects to drop into the mud or bury in sand, I fit them with .010 clearance. Factory Remingtons are usually .010 -.015. I've some with more clearance, never seen one with less.
Back to the original topic.... I've "bushed" maybe a hundred bolts, I used to bush them for my personal rifles but quit doing that at least 10yrs ago.
My personal opinion and experience is that this procedure adds zip, zero, nada to the performance of the rifle. My opinion used to be that "it couldn't hurt, and maybe it does help shrink groups a tiny bit" But I've seen no evidence of it and while some customers have said it "seemed" to shoot better, the vast majority of them have said they like the "tight fit" they've seen nothing on the target..
I still do them, but I think it's a waste of money. But it's not my money being spent and if the customer wants the bolt bushed, I bush it.
Spend your money on more practice. you'd be surprised how many rifles shoot better when the trigger jockey is working properly.
Lynn.... I wasn't making any inquires about buying a bolt....
PTG makes a nice bolt, all of Dave's products are of excellent quality.
Once you buy and pay somneone to install the bolt handle and other bits, you're going to have a chunk of change tied up in one though. And still with questionable benefit.
I build benchrest, F-class, Palma and varmint rifles mostly with around 40% of my work being on "critter getter" rifles.
No website, I don't do business on the web. I'm as busy as I want to be as it is.
Any rifle built to close tolerances will not be suitable for a truck gun or a "combat" type rifle where the rifle may see "abuse".
I've never had a report of anyone having any issues regarding close tolerance barrel/bolt fit up.
Truing an action has nothing to do with "slop".... so I guess I'm lost as to your point on that question.
Open the bolt and throw a factory rifle in the sand or mud and see if it works....
Rifles built for precision shooting are not intended for mud work. buy a K98 mauser if that's what you need.
PTG makes a nice bolt, all of Dave's products are of excellent quality.
Once you buy and pay somneone to install the bolt handle and other bits, you're going to have a chunk of change tied up in one though. And still with questionable benefit.
I build benchrest, F-class, Palma and varmint rifles mostly with around 40% of my work being on "critter getter" rifles.
No website, I don't do business on the web. I'm as busy as I want to be as it is.
Any rifle built to close tolerances will not be suitable for a truck gun or a "combat" type rifle where the rifle may see "abuse".
I've never had a report of anyone having any issues regarding close tolerance barrel/bolt fit up.
Truing an action has nothing to do with "slop".... so I guess I'm lost as to your point on that question.
Open the bolt and throw a factory rifle in the sand or mud and see if it works....
Rifles built for precision shooting are not intended for mud work. buy a K98 mauser if that's what you need.
lynn said:
Lynn - The back,tenon) of my barrls do not look any different than any others. The only differences are in the dimensions which would not be recognizable in a photo.
I believe that kaferhaus is right. There is no solid evidence that sleeving a bolt contributes to increased accuracy. But, you can say the same thing about 95% of the things that benchrest shooters do to their rifles and ammo. Trouble is, we don't really know which 5% are the important ones. It's my personal opinion that mental attitude is as important as equipment. When I go into a match I really do feel that my rifle and ammunition is better prepared than anyone else on the firing line and that I have an advantage before the first target pops up. So I will continue to do all the things that I do.
Ray
AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
We have worked with sleeved bolts on the 700's for several years now. The best approach is a one piece sleeve rather than a rear-only or individual front and rear sleeves. The bolt handle is removed, the bolt body turned and a one piece sleeve fitted around the bolt body...not a split sleeve, but a seamless one piece sleeve. The sleeve is then turned to whatever diameter is appropriate for the rifles intended use. The inside of the reciever is also bored, obviously. The bolt handle is then reinstalled properly to achieve maximum mechanical camming for extraction. Stan Ware at SGR Custom Rifles has been using these one piece sleeves for quite a few years now, and really has the process down. My Rem. actioned HBR rifle was the 'test mule' for his one piece sleeve idea and we saw immediate improvements in what was already a match winning winning rifle. :thumb:
With the availablity of replacement bolts from Dave Kiff, the process has been simplified.
Sleeving a bolt does a lot of good things: it keeps the lugs in better contact as the bolt lifts in the rear against the trigger and reduces the vibrational 'signal' as the rear of the bolt bangs around in the raceway as the trigger is released.
I know of two instances where professionally built BR rifles using two different makes of well known and proven custom actions had issues with varying amounts of 'on target' vertical, despite the best tuning efforts of their very experienced owners. Sleeving the bolts got rid of the vertical in both rifles and they have been consistent winners ever since.
With the availablity of replacement bolts from Dave Kiff, the process has been simplified.
Sleeving a bolt does a lot of good things: it keeps the lugs in better contact as the bolt lifts in the rear against the trigger and reduces the vibrational 'signal' as the rear of the bolt bangs around in the raceway as the trigger is released.
I know of two instances where professionally built BR rifles using two different makes of well known and proven custom actions had issues with varying amounts of 'on target' vertical, despite the best tuning efforts of their very experienced owners. Sleeving the bolts got rid of the vertical in both rifles and they have been consistent winners ever since.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Some time ago a friend was given an old Remington 700 action that had a loose fitting bolt, and some exterior pitting. He built a large steel sleeve for it and installed the sleeved action in a target stock, using pillar bedding, barreling it with a heavy Hart .22 caliber barrel with a tight necked 22-250 chamber. He he had a lot of problems with fliers. Later I gave him some information on sleeving the bolt, which he did, and the flier problem went away. The current barrel is a 3 groove Lilja in 6BR that shoots very well. Minimizing bolt to receiver clearance works. I have discussed with Dave Kiff his producing a set of precision gage rods to be used to measure Remington actions prior to ordering a replacement bolt. I think that such a set may eventually be available.
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