Skip's Shims

[gunsandgunsmithing]

They are just working backwards, from the method you stated above, so they don't bump a shoulder back too far setting it up, they size a case and measure then remove a shim as needed until they get the bump they want. The only thing the shims are doing is taking the place of screwing the die up or down in the press and having to loosen and tighten the lock ring, the shims are just easier and quicker.

Well said. Thanks

 

[DShortt]

They are just working backwards, from the method you stated above, so they don't bump a shoulder back too far setting it up, they size a case and measure then remove a shim as needed until they get the bump they want. The only thing the shims are doing is taking the place of screwing the die up or down in the press and having to loosen and tighten the lock ring, the shims are just easier and quicker.

Right, and I understand that. But if you put shims in then adjust the die to contact how is removing one or more shims going to change anything? It's steel on steel BEFORE any shims are removed.

That's what I've been trying to get across. Either I don't understand specifically how they are setting up their dies or there's just some sort of Spontaneous Serendipity going on.

 

[STS]

You can do all of the above and deal with the challenges of trying to make small changes to sizing, or you can do the following. I’ve used this method for about 30 years and have yet to find a reason not to like it. I have a witness mark on the bushing, and take a fine tip Sharpie marker and put a dot on the die threads. The die is kept in place by a piece of modeling clay. Before someone protests the clay trick, I will point out that I have never had a die move in all the tens of thousands of cases sized with this setup. I can make changes to shoulder bump less than the ability to accurately measure with calipers quite easily.

 

[K22]

You can do all of the above and deal with the challenges of trying to make small changes to sizing, or you can do the following. I’ve used this method for about 30 years and have yet to find a reason not to like it. I have a witness mark on the bushing, and take a fine tip Sharpie marker and put a dot on the die threads. The die is kept in place by a piece of modeling clay. Before someone protests the clay trick, I will point out that I have never had a die move in all the tens of thousands of cases sized with this setup. I can make changes to shoulder bump less than the ability to accurately measure with calipers quite easily.

German Salazar, a competitive rifle shooter, used "witness" marks quite successfully to make sizing adjustments. Just another effective way to "skin the old cat." Good job.

 

[LHSmith]

So, I don't see the purpose of the clay. Aren't you simply adjusting the die in or out to get your exact bump? For me shims provide repeatability and a good reference for your notes. I think we all started with the witness marks but left us wanting something better.
You still use the lock ring to hold the die in place , don't you?

 

[J.d. Popkes]

There’s 2 camps. One that make hard contact between die/shell holders, and one that doesn’t. If you’re in the no contact camp shims are for adjusting your die/bump. If you’re in the contact camp, Redding comp shell holders.

I’m 100% in the hard contact/Redding comp shell holder camp. Because I like all my bumps to be exact every time.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

There’s 2 camps. One that make hard contact between die/shell holders, and one that doesn’t. If you’re in the no contact camp shims are for adjusting your die/bump. If you’re in the contact camp, Redding comp shell holders.

I’m 100% in the hard contact/Redding comp shell holder camp. Because I like all my bumps to be exact every time.

Shims have the same effect as the comp shell holders.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Right, and I understand that. But if you put shims in then adjust the die to contact how is removing one or more shims going to change anything? It's steel on steel BEFORE any shims are removed.

That's what I've been trying to get across. Either I don't understand specifically how they are setting up their dies or there's just some sort of Spontaneous Serendipity going on.

Just try it. Then figure out why it works. Lol!

 

[LHSmith]

Shims have the same effect as the comp shell holders.

Exactly with the exception that you are not limited to 2 thou increments with shims.

 

[marine52]

Shims have the same effect as the comp shell holders.

I disagree. I have a set of Skips shims and they do work for their intended purpose. They allow you to change the shoulder bump w/o moving the lock ring on the die and they allow you to do this in a very precise way. In fact, Tony Boyer—winner of 12 World BR championships—describes, in his book, how to use them starting at .015” of shims and working in the direction of bump increase.
HOWEVER, YOU STILL HAVE TO SCREW THE DIE DOWN TO THE EXACT SAME POSITION TO ACHIEVE THE SAME BUMP AS IF YOU DID NOT HAVE THE SHIMS. Their use does not guarantee a hard solid contact between shellholder and die.

The Comp Shellholders sold by Redding and the modular Shellholders sold by Area 419 are totally different. The standard shellholder has a .125” distance between the surface that the case base sits on and the top of the shellholder ledge. Comp shellholders allow this distance to vary in order to maintain a solid die-to-shellholder contact. For example, the +10 shellholder has this distance at .135” , allowing a solid die-to-shellholder contact but providing 0.010” less bump.

 

[BoydAllen]

Shims have the same effect as the comp shell holders.

There is another benefit to the Redding Competition shell holders that gets overlooked in some discussions. Within their range, they allow you to have some toggle, when your situation does not result in die contact with a standard shell holder. This toggle tends to reduce the effect of variable linkage stretch or compression (depending on the design of the particular press), which gives more uniform shoulder bump.

 

[STS]

So, I don't see the purpose of the clay. Aren't you simply adjusting the die in or out to get your exact bump? For me shims provide repeatability and a good reference for your notes. I think we all started with the witness marks but left us wanting something better.
You still use the lock ring to hold the die in place , don't you?

The clay keeps the die from rotating in the bushing. You can see another piece of clay on the opposite side of the die. At one time I used 2 lumps of clay, but quickly discovered that one would keep the die in place without fail. I do not have any lock rings on any of my dies, and haven't used any in probably 30 years. It's far easier to adjust for small changes without the ring. I used lock rings for 20 years or so, but once I started using this method I never even considered going back to them. No need for any shims or graduated shell holders or any other work around method. If I want to increase or decrease shoulder bump .0005 it take about 3 seconds to do it, and do it with great accuracy.
The irony of this whole thing is that the title to this thread is "Skips Shims." The refers to Skip Otto, who I bought the press in the photo from (as well as 5 more just like it) which is a RCBS A2.

 

[jimmymac]

Where the hell is Guffy when you need him?

 

[LHSmith]

The clay keeps the die from rotating in the bushing. You can see another piece of clay on the opposite side of the die. At one time I used 2 lumps of clay, but quickly discovered that one would keep the die in place without fail. I do not have any lock rings on any of my dies, and haven't used any in probably 30 years. It's far easier to adjust for small changes without the ring. I used lock rings for 20 years or so, but once I started using this method I never even considered going back to them. No need for any shims or graduated shell holders or any other work around method. If I want to increase or decrease shoulder bump .0005 it take about 3 seconds to do it, and do it with great accuracy.
The irony of this whole thing is that the title to this thread is "Skips Shims." The refers to Skip Otto, who I bought the press in the photo from (as well as 5 more just like it) which is a RCBS A2.

So you are taking the "floating" concept to the extreme? I just don't feel comfy watching the die wiggle during sizing. But if it worked well for you for 30 years -who am I to argue.

 

[STS]

So you are taking the "floating" concept to the extreme? I just don't feel comfy watching the die wiggle during sizing. But if it worked well for you for 30 years -who am I to argue.

Think about this for a moment if you will. With a lock ring, the die is pulled up so that both load bearing thread surfaces in the die and press are in full contact. Without a lock ring, no sizing occurs until both load bearing surfaces of the threads are in full contact with each other. There is no difference in the function of the die with or without the ring. It's just infinitely quicker, simpler, less expensive, and just as accurate to adjust without the ring.

 

[DShortt]

Just try it. Then figure out why it works. Lol!

I'll try it because as with most things reloading related where something just ain't right somewhere the only way to know is to test it and see.

I've yet to see compressible steel.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

I disagree. I have a set of Skips shims and they do work for their intended purpose. They allow you to change the shoulder bump w/o moving the lock ring on the die and they allow you to do this in a very precise way. In fact, Tony Boyer—winner of 12 World BR championships—describes, in his book, how to use them starting at .015” of shims and working in the direction of bump increase.
HOWEVER, YOU STILL HAVE TO SCREW THE DIE DOWN TO THE EXACT SAME POSITION TO ACHIEVE THE SAME BUMP AS IF YOU DID NOT HAVE THE SHIMS. Their use does not guarantee a hard solid contact between shellholder and die.

The Comp Shellholders sold by Redding and the modular Shellholders sold by Area 419 are totally different. The standard shellholder has a .125” distance between the surface that the case base sits on and the top of the shellholder ledge. Comp shellholders allow this distance to vary in order to maintain a solid die-to-shellholder contact. For example, the +10 shellholder has this distance at .135” , allowing a solid die-to-shellholder contact but providing 0.010” less bump.

You can explain it for them but you can’t understand it for them.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

I'll try it because as with most things reloading related where something just ain't right somewhere the only way to know is to test it and see.

I've yet to see compressible steel.

Presses flex on when sizing. An indicator proves that.

 

[AlNyhus]

For those that can't savvy a shim but don't want to hassle with conventional lock rings, these are great. Lightly snugged, you can adjust the die but the die won't rotate as the case is sized. Witness marks per your whim.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[DShortt]

Presses flex on when sizing. An indicator proves that.

OK. How much?

And that's in the press frame. What does that have to do with a steel die against a steel shell holder?

Show me how you can stick a .002" shim between 2 pieces of steel in hard contact.

So you remove a shim and flex your press frame an extra .002". If the dimension changes in your brass it's one of 2 things.

1 - your brass would have reached the dimension you wanted even if you didn't change shims.

2 - you already sized it once and if you'd just sized it again the same dimension would have resulted.

Again, you guys can't convince me a steel sizing die and a steel shell holder change dimensions if you just smash them together in a press harder.

Now, having said that. If there is a gap between your die and shell holder and you're changing shims while a gap remains then that's another circus and group of monkeys. But that's not what at least some guys say they are doing.