Sizing procedure question

[Dusty Stevens]

Redding bushings are slightly tapered and may not size the neck the same diameter at the neck shoulder junction.

Below the inside bottom of the bushing is tapered, there have other postings here where member brought this up. The good point of this is any donut will not be pushed to the inside of the neck with the tapered end.

Ill first admit that i dont use redding bushings in any serious loading session, but if a bushing has a taper in it then it is a faulty bushing and should be returned. I do have pin gages and ive never seen a taper in a wilson, redding, crt or mundy bushing. That defeats the purpose.

 

[dstoenner]

David
Isn't the need for neck turning determined by the reamer ?
I know a lot of shooters using no turn necks producing excellent ammunition.
Jim

Been out doing yard work but Mozella answered the question perfectly.

David

 

[dstoenner]

David,

I am not shooting Bench Rest competition but I would like to try turning them anyway. I am only trying to hit 1' square steels way the hell out there. I shoot at Thunder Valley Precision in east-central Ohio and he has a course called head hunter which has steel targets with spring loaded heads that collapse and come back up when hit. They are actual head sized targets out to 600 yards or so. It is very hilly with lots of changing winds. Fun as all get-out but it is tough! He also has targets out to a mile and he was saying that to smack them, your SD's better be single digit.

I have never turned necks before but would like to try and see the difference it makes. How do I know how much to take off and what size bushing I would need after turning them? I will search to see if there is a good article or other posts also.

Thanks,

David also!

David (great first name )

Turning necks is not relegated to benchrest. As was also pointed out and what I tried to point out is that the neck of even Lapua brass is not uniform all the way around. So when the case is fired it doesn't let go of the bullet symmetrically which can cant the bullet going into the lands. Now when the bullet leaves the muzzle it isn't flying straight so is not going to hit where others might have created a good group. You only have to do it once in the life of your brass but from then on at least you are giving everything a fighting chance.

I guess I have to ask you, if you don't want to turn necks why are you using a bushing sizing die? You are not getting your money's worth of your sizing die.

David

 

[JFrank]

I may be the minority with a .272 no turn neck 6 br
I FL size using a B-1 Harrell's die with a Wilson bushing.003 under a loaded round I bump the shoulder.002 After sizing I follow with a .241 Mandrel ensuring an inside diameter.002 under.
I may turn necks in the future but I'll still use the Mandrel
At least now I know how"
Good thread
Jim

 

[fatelvis]

This is not how my Redding FL type S dies work. Mine sizes the whole neck. You would have to put a spacer in under the bushing to accomplish any length adjustment on neck sizing, which might work, I suppose, but I'd want to cut those spacers pretty close to the unsized neck dimension. Maybe someone has done this.

You dont need a spacer under the bushing, just unscrew the “bushing retaining cap” at the top of the die, until the desired amount of neck is sized.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Ill first admit that i dont use redding bushings in any serious loading session, but if a bushing has a taper in it then it is a faulty bushing and should be returned. I do have pin gages and ive never seen a taper in a wilson, redding, crt or mundy bushing. That defeats the purpose.

The complaint about the bushing not sizing all the way down the neck has been brought up here before. And the answer was the Redding bushings has a taper on the bottom.

Imaging someone using a bushing die on a rifle with a factory chamber with a fat neck. If the bushing was not tapered how would the fat case neck enter a bushing without a beveled taper. This goes to say bushing dies work best on custom tight neck chambers with neck turn brass.

And the reason I posted the Redding bushing photo was to show the taper on marked labeled end of the bushing that faces down in the die.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The complaint about the bushing not sizing all the way down the neck has been brought up here before. And the answer was the Redding bushings has a taper on the bottom.

Imaging someone using a bushing die on a rifle with a factory chamber with a fat neck. If the bushing was not tapered how would the fat case neck enter a bushing without a beveled taper. This goes to say bushing dies work best on custom tight neck chambers with nec turn brass.

I think you may have misinterpreted why the bushing doesnt size all the way down. Its a design of the die and just cant get that far. Bushings have a radiused entry but are otherwise the sane size on both ends and can be installed upside down if you like with no change. If a bushing isnt exactly the same on both sides its defective. Even redding bushings are honed to where the difference of both sides is way less than .001.

 

[mikecr]

Does that work with so much travel? I've admittedly never tried. But yes, my .308 dies size all the way to the shoulder/neck junction.

The Reddings I've had in the past could not, and none of my current Wilsons can. If your Redding can, don't do this. It greatly adds to tension variance, and neck-shoulder area of necks expanded & hammered straight with fire forming fit into chamber necks perfectly -without friggin them up with sizing.
There is nothing but bad in sizing of donut area, same with any lengths beyond seated bullet bearing. No gain, only detriment.

There are dies out there that use bushings which include the shoulder. Neal Jones & similar : http://www.neiljones.com/html/micro_dies.html
I don't know if these bushings taper open a bit near donut area, but I know mine would or I wouldn't purchase & use one of these.

 

[rwj]

I may be the minority with a .272 no turn neck 6 br
I FL size using a B-1 Harrell's die with a Wilson bushing.003 under a loaded round I bump the shoulder.002 After sizing I follow with a .241 Mandrel ensuring an inside diameter.002 under.
I may turn necks in the future but I'll still use the Mandrel
At least now I know how"
Good thread
Jim

I’m in the minority with ya... same caliber, chamber neck diameter, and no neck turning. I only use an expander mandrel on cases that don’t pass a “go/no go” pin gauge inspection. Only reason I’d consider neck turning would be to increase the .003” diametral clearance of the chambered case.

 

[dcali]

You dont need a spacer under the bushing, just unscrew the “bushing retaining cap” at the top of the die, until the desired amount of neck is sized.

I get that, but does this cause any issues? I've not tried it. I generally just screw it down and back it off just enough to let the bushing float. I just follow the instructions, and it's always served me well.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I get that, but does this cause any issues? I've not tried it. I generally just screw it down and back it off just enough to let the bushing float. I just follow the instructions, and it's always served me well.

It allows the expanded neck to help center the case in the chamber. It in turn lessens the total grip on the bullet

 

[David247]

David (great first name )

Turning necks is not relegated to benchrest. As was also pointed out and what I tried to point out is that the neck of even Lapua brass is not uniform all the way around. So when the case is fired it doesn't let go of the bullet symmetrically which can cant the bullet going into the lands. Now when the bullet leaves the muzzle it isn't flying straight so is not going to hit where others might have created a good group. You only have to do it once in the life of your brass but from then on at least you are giving everything a fighting chance.

I guess I have to ask you, if you don't want to turn necks why are you using a bushing sizing die? You are not getting your money's worth of your sizing die.

David

At this point I am just following directions from the guy who built the rig for me. In previous years I used a collet neck size die on my old 308 and never turned necks then either but I also ran into an accuracy wall where I could rarely bet better than 5\8" MOA groups and decided to start from scratch with a new and better gun and reloading methods. So this is all new to my. It is not that I don't want to turn necks but as I said, up till now I had been just following directions. I would like to turn them and see what happens.

 

[hoz53]

I am reloading 6.5 Creedmoor with Lupua brass, using a Reading S type full length die with the bushing but expander removed, (necks are not turned), and follow it with a Sinclair mandrel expander.

I have been reloading for years but I took a reloading class by the the guy who built my gun and he said you don't need to use the mandrel expander every time you reload. Only on new brass that get a little beat up in shipping or if you don't catch your brass when they are ejected and they need to be uniformed.

I am trying to get my standard deviation in the single digits. They are running in the teens now.

Do you guys use an expander each time?

FYI, this will be the third reloading, they were all annealed using an Amp annealer, I use a Wilson chamber type seating die and K&M arbor, 40 grains H4350 using an FX-120i, 130 Berger hybrids, and I'm using a LabRadar Chronograph. I am trying to use the best equipment that I can afford (or sometimes not) to produce as precise rounds as possible. In addition to the question above, If you have other suggestions, let me know.

Sorry for the question turning into a book!!! Thanks

ok i scanned this thread but didnt comepletely read all posts so this may have been answered. Its simple if you turn necks the brass will be sized down to a consistent diameter so you dont need to size with a mandral inless the necks are dinged up ect. if you dont turn necks they probably wont be sized to consistent diameter so you need to size with the mandral or use the expander ball. even after turning you may find different pieces of brass in the same bunch harden differently and size differently-- in that case youd need to expand them with the expander ball or mandral.

 

[dcali]

It allows the expanded neck to help center the case in the chamber. It in turn lessens the total grip on the bullet

I mean, does letting the bushing float up so much cause any sizing problems (runout,etc)

 

[JFrank]

Your answer is moments away!

 

[Clancy]

I may be in the minority here, but I’ve never once turned a neck, and never done anything to increase/decrease neck tension aside from verifying that it was sufficient from the get go (I took 1K off my expander ball in my 6.5x47 once).

I use only Lapua brass, test for seating depth before powder work, and select a powder that gives me a nice full case.

I have no trouble shooting half MOA or better at distance, and amongst my “accurate” rifles the worst SD I’m forced to suffer is 6.2.

Call me crazy, but if my SD was poor, I wouldn’t be looking at a bushing.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I mean, does letting the bushing float up so much cause any sizing problems (runout,etc)

No it actually helps if you have runout problems. The bushing doesnt tilt or rock around its just not going on there as far. The die or whatever is going to be causing the same runout it did- that is just a band-aid to help center it up. Fix a flat comes to mind here

 

[JRS]

The WTC dies minimize the runout problems. Open that wallet and buy one

 

[dcali]

No it actually helps if you have runout problems. The bushing doesnt tilt or rock around its just not going on there as far. The die or whatever is going to be causing the same runout it did- that is just a band-aid to help center it up. Fix a flat comes to mind here

Huh. I'll have to try it. I'm not having any notable problems, but who knows. might knock a bit off my groups.

 

[Fotheringill]

A call to Redding will confirm that you can't get near the start of the neck with its bushings with the Competition Neck Sizing die. It is the way they made it.