Sizing procedure question

[dcali]

The Reddings I've had in the past could not, and none of my current Wilsons can. If your Redding can, don't do this. It greatly adds to tension variance, and neck-shoulder area of necks expanded & hammered straight with fire forming fit into chamber necks perfectly -without friggin them up with sizing.
There is nothing but bad in sizing of donut area, same with any lengths beyond seated bullet bearing. No gain, only detriment.

There are dies out there that use bushings which include the shoulder. Neal Jones & similar : http://www.neiljones.com/html/micro_dies.html
I don't know if these bushings taper open a bit near donut area, but I know mine would or I wouldn't purchase & use one of these.

It could be that mine are unusually tight - I've only got three of them, but they all seem to size down to the point where the neck radius begins. I expected at least 30 thous or so to be unsized just looking at the dies, but that's not what I get. I've got some wilson neck sizers that only size about 2/3 the neck.

 

[JRS]

It could be that mine are unusually tight - I've only got three of them, but they all seem to size down to the point where the neck radius begins. I expected at least 30 thous or so to be unsized just looking at the dies, but that's not what I get. I've got some wilson neck sizers that only size about 2/3 the neck.

They aren't designed, nor made to size to the neck-shoulder junction. They provide a bandaid.

 

[dcali]

They aren't designed, nor made to size to the neck-shoulder junction. They provide a bandaid.

That's what confuses me. Min all size just like normal FL dies. Everyone keeps telling me that they're not supposed to, but they do.

 

[JRS]

That's what confuses me. Min all size just like normal FL dies. Everyone keeps telling me that they're not supposed to, but they do.

The normal bushing die does not provide the degree of sizing that the WTC die provides, nor does the average FL die provide the precision the WTC die provides. You can't compare precision to mass produced items.

 

[dcali]

The normal bushing die does not provide the degree of sizing that the WTC die provides, nor does the average FL die provide the precision the WTC die provides. You can't compare precision to mass produced items.

I'm sure they're not. I just wish I had a dollar for every time someone told me that a Redding can't size the whole neck, while I'm staring at a set of calipers that says otherwise. I can't be the only one.

 

[JRS]

I'm sure they're not. I just wish I had a dollar for every time someone told me that a Redding can't size the whole neck, while I'm staring at a set of calipers that says otherwise. I can't be the only one.

The Redding bushing cannot size the entire neck. It is not made to do so. That would require 2 separate pieces. An insert for the body of your fired brass, and an insert for the neck to shoulder junction of your fired brass. Depending on your touch, a caliper will get you in the ballpark. That's about it.

 

[mikecr]

Possibly a mismatched die to cartridge.
Maybe some of the shoulder itself get's beyond the die shoulder.
Could happen using a die made for one cartridge & cal, on another.
Like a 6br die used for a 22br. The reduced neck size means lengthening of the shoulder, and the 6br die wouldn't account for it. So that extra shoulder, extending to a smaller neck, goes into reach of the neck bushing. Just a theory.

With wildcats, I always use custom bushing dies. And with standard cartridges, I haven't seen a bushing size the whole neck.

 

[Uncle Ed]

David247

The Redding bushing FAQ tells you if you have .002 or more neck thickness variation you should use the dies expander. (or a expander die)

I sort my cases with a Sinclair neck thickness gauge because its faster than taking individual readings with a ball mic. I'm also sizing with Forster full length benchrest dies and using the dies expander.

"BUT" even on the cases with less than .002 thickness variation minimum neck turning will reveal variations that may have a effect. Most of the variations I found with minimum turning were from the neck shoulder junction to half way up the neck.

There are competitive shooter here with far more experience than myself. But I would ask if new Lapua brass needs to be neck turned for your type shooting. I say this because so many reloaders just say load and shoot because Lapua brass is very uniform.

I also know when I first started neck turning I messed up more cases than I care to admit. And I can tell you "less" is more when it comes to neck turning. Meaning only cleaning up 50% to 75% of the neck maximum and expanding the necks.

If you take a non-bushing full length die, remove the expander and size the case it will be as concentric as it ever will be. And it is the type expander that can induce neck runout and why many people use expander dies.

Below my non-bushing .243 Redding full length die retrofitted with a Forster high mounted floating expander and spindle assembly. This greatly reduced neck runout and I did not have to "drag" the longer Redding expande through the case neck.

And at the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric cases with non-bushing full length dies. So you might want to try a Forster full length die with a honed neck to your desired diameter.

 

[mikecr]

W/regard to thickness variance, I have not seen Lapua measuring better than other brands.
And never base decisions on the word of those potentially making money from it. Test everything yourself.

 

[JRS]

There is no reason whatsoever to over analyze this shit. You'll never see the difference.

 

[Uncle Ed]

There is no reason whatsoever to over analyze this shit. You'll never see the difference.

JRS

Given the fact that the OP David247 is not shooting in competition are you saying he does not need to turn his necks.

Or are you talking about the amount the necks are sized by a bushing.

Bottom line, what is the advice to David247 questions for his type shooting and not over complicating things.

 

[JRS]

JRS

Given the fact that the OP David247 is not shooting in competition are you saying he does not need to turn his necks.

Or are you talking about the amount the necks are sized by a bushing.

Bottom line, what is the advice to David247 questions for his type shooting and not over complicating things.

Unless the OP is a competitive shooter at the highest level, considering the quality of available brass, there is no reason whatsoever to turn the necks on quality made brass. Many competitors using minimum no turn chambers do not neck turn their brass. Unless you are one of the died the wool competitors seeking the ultimate in precision, there is no reason whatsoever to waste time and money to strive for the type of precision that very few have accomplished.

 

[KenOath]

Ill first admit that i dont use redding bushings in any serious loading session, but if a bushing has a taper in it then it is a faulty bushing and should be returned. I do have pin gages and ive never seen a taper in a wilson, redding, crt or mundy bushing. That defeats the purpose.

What bushings do you use Dusty?
For my 6mils I’m able to buy carbide bushings up to .2685 but they don’t make them any larger. For anything above 6mm I used the coated Redding bushings, apart from the steel Wilson bushings what else is there?

 

[mikecr]

there is no reason whatsoever to waste time and money to strive for the type of precision that very few have accomplished.

We might strive for UNDERSTANDING.
Learning can be the most important part of hobbies.
I for one cannot make a living learning. But I am at least living, and learning.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What bushings do you use Dusty?
For my 6mils I’m able to buy carbide bushings up to .2685 but they don’t make them any larger. For anything above 6mm I used the coated Redding bushings, apart from the steel Wilson bushings what else is there?

I use bud mundy carbide bushings but they range from .2555 to .265. They are targeted to ppc shooters with 262-268nk chambers. I imagine it costs a ton of money to have them made so he only does the sizes we use most im sure. Anything i use for any other size in anything besides my ppc cases i try to use crt bushings but i do have a bunch of redding regulars and tin coated. Nothing wrong with any of them in reality. No need for the tin either if you clean the carbon off the necks theyll last 3 lifetimes

 

[cw308]

Went down that road with bushing dies , playing with neck tension using the Redding S Type bushing dies , sizing in two steps . Runout was poor . Went back to Full length sizing die using the expander ball , I don't neck turn or anneal my brass , just another step to add to the mix . What I do is size to minimum case headspace dimension , all the same .002 using the Redding Competition shellholder set of 5 , trim to the same length . Seat using the Redding Competition Seating die with a .002 jump . My cases from base to datum and from base to ogive setting on the bullet are exact . I use the RCBS ChargeMaster 1500 for powder dump an double check in the GemPro250 to fine tune my loads to 40.84 grains of IMR 4064 . Playing with neck tension , squaring up the necks and annealing the brass , just adds to the variables . Testing now to see if brass has a certain amount of life , no matter what you do to it . Do the best you can with the basics and see what works best on the targets . When finding that great reload , without changing anything just work on your form will tighten the groups even more . Just adding another vairable .

 

[Uncle Ed]

All my rifles are off the shelf factory rifles with standard SAAMI chambers and I have three bushing dies. And my Forster full length benchrest dies will produce cases with far less neck runout than the bushing dies.

Right now I'm prepping 300 Lake City 7.62 cases and the necks average less than .002 neck thickness variations. And my neck runout after sizing is approximately the same as the neck thickness variations. And if I use my bushing die I average .004 to .006 neck runout.

Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. And if you are worried about over working the case necks then have Forster hone the neck of their full length dies. Someone in another forum always said that chambers and dies vary in size and nothing is written in stone. And with a full length die with a honed neck the expander can be a good thing.

Below variations in neck diameter of standard off the shelf dies.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

Please note below the full length Forster honed dies produced less neck runout than a bushing die.

 

[cw308]

Uncle Ed
Interesting article , thank you . Im using the standard nothing fancy RCBS Full Length Sizing Die in combination with the Comp. Shellholder set to size my brass to the fired case length , neck tension may vary slightly do to Im using three different types of brass 30 each , HSM , FC and ADI all are on the thick side , 308 caliber. Average neck tension .003
I leave the stem loose on the expander ball stem to center itself and lube the inside of the necks when sizing . My average runout is .001 with the bushing dies it was .004 I'm not shooting long , the ranges in my area are max. 200 yards , I only shoot 200 yards , target is 3 one inch out line 1/4" black squars , shoot 3 groups of ten per range trip , takes about two hours . Average group size 1/2" I'm not changing anything just working on form , making shooting more enjoyable the racking my brain with load changes , jump or jam . The RCBS Precision Mic is working out well , great tool .

Chris

 

[Uncle Ed]

Below I equipped all my RCBS dies with the Forster expander and spindle assembly.

Below on the left a RCBS .223 expander raised as high as it will move. And on the right the Forster high mounted floating expander.

With the Forster die the neck of the case is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. And the floating expander can not pull the case neck off center.

One of the biggest causes of neck runout is if the expander is locked down off center.

If you do not want or need a Forster die then remove your dies expander and expand the necks with a expander die. The major difference is when using the Forster die you size and expand the necks in one operation. And have the same minimum neck runout as you would with using a separate expander die.

 

[cw308]

The RCBS on the right the expander is lower in your picture , I can adjust the height of the ball , the runout is good with the RCBS die set up , I keep the stem loose to self center . The ball first enters the case neck before it's sized then when the ram is lowered an case neck sized the ball will open the neck to the ball dimension , I was thinking of changing to the Forster stem on my RCBS die but my runout is good . Keeping the stem locked down will increase runout .