For those of you who shoot NRA mid range or long range, conventional or F Class, how do you manage sighters for the first match of the day when you start with a clean barrel? I have done some limited testing to see if the first two or three shots are reliable as sighters but the results were not conclusive. I prefer to shoot two sighters and go for record but that may not be a good strategy for the first match. I would like to know if any of you have data on this, I have opinions but I do not have conclusive data. I shoot the 223 at 600 and the 260 Remington at 1000 but I think information from most of the cartridges that folks are shooting would be helpful.
Sighter management for the first match of the day with a clean barrel
- Thread starter chkunz
- Start date
If I cleaned the barrel, which is not very often actually (150-300 rounds depending on how the rifle was shooting or if I feel like its time to do a clean), I go to the range the day before and shoot the rifle to get some foulers in so I am essentially going to a match with a fouled up barrel.
I try not to go to a match with a clean barrel. There is just too many variables affecting the shot at the point.
If it is a match that allows unlimited sighters on the first relay, then I will use that time to foul up the barrel. Once i think the barrel is fouled up and is shooting fairly consistent and I got a good wind condition, then I go for record.
I try not to go to a match with a clean barrel. There is just too many variables affecting the shot at the point.
If it is a match that allows unlimited sighters on the first relay, then I will use that time to foul up the barrel. Once i think the barrel is fouled up and is shooting fairly consistent and I got a good wind condition, then I go for record.
The first string of Long Range allows unlimited sighters. The subsequent strings can be either two or unlimited depending upon who is running the match. The Mid-range matches I have participated in have gone both ways but more often than not for a club match allow unlimited sighters for the first string only. I generally show up with a lightly fouled barrel but even when scheduling did not allow fouling before hand you can make half corrections for the first sighter (assuming you have good zeros) and finalize the second one. One is limited by time no matter what though.
I always go to the match with a fouled barrel from practice and making sure I have a "no wind zero" at the onset of practice. I normally shoot about 25-30 rounds to foul the barrel, sighted in and practice. That leaves 70-75 rounds for sighters and score shooting.
Since I KNOW I have a "no wind Zero" from practice, when I lay down for the first match and lets say the wind is about 8-10 m.p.h. running from right to left with about a 30-45 degree angle wind coming at you AND there are some "regular" let-offs and the wind dies down to 4m.p.h. I put the crosshairs right in the middle of the "X" and let loose with 3 shots to see where they land. Once that happens and say they land right between the 9 and 8 ring but VERY close to the edge of the 9 ring. I will then hold over on the opposite side of the target where the bullet landed and see where they land. Assuming they land in or very close to the "X" ring, it is "GOOD TO GO" in the heavier wind. IF POSSIBLE I will wait for a "let-off" and hold where I think it will go and let one fly. I will then see where it lands and I will hold correctly and watch it land either in the "X" and or very close to it. NOW I KNOW where to hold in both the heavier wind and in the let-offs.
What about matches 2 and 3 with only 2 sighters.. I go and hold where I think the wind is going to take the bullet and let it fly>>>assume it goes in or near the "X" ring, I will simply shoot again. This will confirm I am "reading" the wind correctly. Now what about the "let-offs"? Well in match 1 I held right at the edge of the "TEN RING" (1 ring closer) with the let-offs>>> If the winds are very close to the same velocity, you will be pounding the "X" and 10 rings very consistently. If, on the other hand, the wind is blowing harder and I need to hold those 2 shots at the point of the 9 ring CLOSE to the 8 ring. Since I had to hold "most of a ring" further out, then I need to hold "most of a ring" further out from where I held for the "let-offs" in match 1>> IF THE LET-OFFS ARE NOW 7-8MPH instead of the previous 4mph.. If they are still down in the 4MPH range, I will continue to shoot where I did with the let-offs from match 1..
This is a "long-winded" explanation of what I do>> but it works!
Since I KNOW I have a "no wind Zero" from practice, when I lay down for the first match and lets say the wind is about 8-10 m.p.h. running from right to left with about a 30-45 degree angle wind coming at you AND there are some "regular" let-offs and the wind dies down to 4m.p.h. I put the crosshairs right in the middle of the "X" and let loose with 3 shots to see where they land. Once that happens and say they land right between the 9 and 8 ring but VERY close to the edge of the 9 ring. I will then hold over on the opposite side of the target where the bullet landed and see where they land. Assuming they land in or very close to the "X" ring, it is "GOOD TO GO" in the heavier wind. IF POSSIBLE I will wait for a "let-off" and hold where I think it will go and let one fly. I will then see where it lands and I will hold correctly and watch it land either in the "X" and or very close to it. NOW I KNOW where to hold in both the heavier wind and in the let-offs.
What about matches 2 and 3 with only 2 sighters.. I go and hold where I think the wind is going to take the bullet and let it fly>>>assume it goes in or near the "X" ring, I will simply shoot again. This will confirm I am "reading" the wind correctly. Now what about the "let-offs"? Well in match 1 I held right at the edge of the "TEN RING" (1 ring closer) with the let-offs>>> If the winds are very close to the same velocity, you will be pounding the "X" and 10 rings very consistently. If, on the other hand, the wind is blowing harder and I need to hold those 2 shots at the point of the 9 ring CLOSE to the 8 ring. Since I had to hold "most of a ring" further out, then I need to hold "most of a ring" further out from where I held for the "let-offs" in match 1>> IF THE LET-OFFS ARE NOW 7-8MPH instead of the previous 4mph.. If they are still down in the 4MPH range, I will continue to shoot where I did with the let-offs from match 1..
This is a "long-winded" explanation of what I do>> but it works!
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
First match of the day I usually take 7 sighters. I don't touch the knobs till the vertical stops changing, usually after at least four. Currently I have 4 barrels from two manufacturers, it's pretty consistent, very low on the first and stabilizes in about 3 or 4 from a well cleaned barrel.
My 308s have typically hit at least a minute low at 1000 yards on the first sighter from a clean barrel.
My 308s have typically hit at least a minute low at 1000 yards on the first sighter from a clean barrel.
The really smart shooter (that leaves me out usually!) will come with the barrel ready to shoot the match with no fouling shots and shoot his/her sighters at the far ends of the wind cycles. That way they know the fold offs (for scope shooter) or the sight corrections (for the iron sight shooters) in the extremes of the wind shifts and/or speed changes.
They also time the wind cycles to know how long the wind takes to complete a whole cycle BEFORE they come to the line.
They also time the wind cycles to know how long the wind takes to complete a whole cycle BEFORE they come to the line.
Depends on what my barrel is telling me, and that seems to depend on where it is in life. It also depends on how soon before a match I am able to foul the barrel. I do not like leaving a barrel dirty for more than a few days. I have noted that when I do, the color of the stuff I remove has changed from what I was expecting, and IMO this indicates chemical changes have taken place in the residue. The idea of chemical changes happening inside my match barrels worries me.
With new-ish barrels, I can show up with a clean rifle, shoot 7 or so spotters, and achieve vertical stability within 2 or 3 shots. I like to shoot this many spotters early in the day anyway to settle myself as much as the rifle. Since I know the behaviour of the rifle, I am able to use the information from the rest of the spotters for wind reading. I agree with XTR above that the first one or two shots from a clean rifle are a minute low.
When I started LR, I was shooting a .300WSM which behaved gracefully as above...until one day it didn't. At about 1200 rounds it began sending (from a clean barrel) round one 2 moa left and one moa high, then round two was one moa left and about 3/4 moa high, then round three and the rest were centered. It did this very consistently for a period of time. Then, at about 1800 rounds, this stopped abruptly. Only this rifle showed this behaviour, and my FTR rifle did not, so it was the rifle and not me. The moral of this story is that I pay close attention during "fouling" and watch for signs of erratic behaviour.
Day 2 of a two day match I have not cleaned overnight. I used to but not anymore.
With new-ish barrels, I can show up with a clean rifle, shoot 7 or so spotters, and achieve vertical stability within 2 or 3 shots. I like to shoot this many spotters early in the day anyway to settle myself as much as the rifle. Since I know the behaviour of the rifle, I am able to use the information from the rest of the spotters for wind reading. I agree with XTR above that the first one or two shots from a clean rifle are a minute low.
When I started LR, I was shooting a .300WSM which behaved gracefully as above...until one day it didn't. At about 1200 rounds it began sending (from a clean barrel) round one 2 moa left and one moa high, then round two was one moa left and about 3/4 moa high, then round three and the rest were centered. It did this very consistently for a period of time. Then, at about 1800 rounds, this stopped abruptly. Only this rifle showed this behaviour, and my FTR rifle did not, so it was the rifle and not me. The moral of this story is that I pay close attention during "fouling" and watch for signs of erratic behaviour.
Day 2 of a two day match I have not cleaned overnight. I used to but not anymore.
I like your idea of shooting some fouling shots before bringing the rifle to the match and I have done this a couple of times but normally that is not an option for me. Do you have any data on how many fouling shots are adequate? My limited testing at reduced range indicated that it only takes two or three but I do not consider my limited data to be definitive.bsumoba said:
I like the idea of bringing the rifle to the match fouled and ready to go if possible. What do you consider "lightly fouled"? It seems like if you have the option to foul the barrel before the match you would like for it to be adequately fouled, and then the question would be how many rounds is that? That may be what you intended by lightly fouled and I am not trying to split hairs but just trying to understand your preferred process.MTM said:
I think you are saying that you know your zeros and your gun well enough that it only takes two sighters and when you see what you expect from those two sighters you are good to go for record after two sighters. Is that correct? Also it sounds like you only get an impact change in the vertical during the two sighters from the fouling?lmmike said:
Thanks for the very detailed response. I think your first sentence is the most relevant to my question, you always show up with a fouled barrel and you shoot 25-30 shots before the match. I have no doubts that 25-30 is adequate but what do you think the minimum is, any data? The rest of your response is addressed to how to make the most of the sighters for understanding what the wind is doing and you certainly have a rigorous and thoughtful approach for that aspect of the match.ShootDots said:
Thanks for the response. Do you see any repeatability in the point of impact as you shoot thru the 5 to 7 sighters? What I am looking for is how many sighters does it take before a clean barrel settles down and the shot point of impact is repeatable and can be considered as a reliable sighter.corning said:
If I take the barrel right down to bare metal, as in ZERO carbon whatsoever, it takes me about 3-4 to get into the "ten / X ring" BUT it takes about 10 more to get it "solidly" shooting a VERY TIGHT vertical. Remember this>>>anything above or below the "waterline" will give you LESS TARGET AREA to hit a 10 with as the arc of the circle closes in.. The 3 O'clock / 9 O'clock is the W-I-D-E-S-T point on the target. So vertical becomes paramount, BOTH in load development and to ensure the barrel is fouled out..
It looks like you and a lot of others do not take a clean barrel to the match, that is a good position to be in and it eliminates the question I am trying to answer and you do not have to be concerned with how many and what is the minimum, etc. You have one less thing to be concerned about and that is a good position to be in. Thanks for the response.suberjc said:
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.