Sierra .264 140-142 Matchking for HUNTING DEER-ELK ?????

[clannagael]

You are quite correct; you clearly do not get it.
A lab cannot determine what will happen in the field. It can only give an educated guestament.
Incidently, I have shot/harvested hundreds of large game animals with only losing one. I think that speakers for itself. What is your experience?

Here's the thing, bullets move at a high rate of speed. They're engineered a specific way to perform a specific task and behave a particular way. Your experimental evidence that you think is reliable isn't even close. In order to accurately determine that a particular bullet were suited to a particular task is to fire hundreds of rounds in a controlled setting then use statistics and that experimental data to determine the average, most likely behavior of the bullet. You can't possibly do that in your lifetime against elk. If a bullet is designed to remain intact or disintegrate on impact then it's been proven over and over that that is the most likely scenario, and the outcome for which it was engineered. By going into the field and firing one or two or even five rounds at an elk is statistically insignificant, not to mention ignorant, and careless. Even if you did kill an elk with one on the first shot it doesn't prove anything other than you're careless, reckless, and unethical.

You're clearly lacking in ethics, to what end I can't imagine. I won't continue to argue with you on this subject.

Happy hunting,
Dave

 

[clannagael]

Crow,

I not clear on what your point is, but your comment seems to suggest that the memo you attached indicates that the SMK, as evaluated by the USMC, is a fine round for hunting.

Please don't confuse the fact that the US Military's obligation, as stated in the memo, is to minimize damage and suffering as much as possible. They therefore concluded that the SMK is just as acceptable as FMJ bullets currently in use. The Geneva convention prohibits the use of hollow point or expanding ammunition that might cause unnecessary suffering. This just underscores the point that using a SMK on an elk is no different than using a FMJ bullet - neither is designed for hunting, in which the point is to inflict as much damage as possible to purposely kill the animal as quickly as possible, whereas in combat the desired outcome is exactly the opposite - to incapacitate, but not maim or kill, whenever possible.

Dave

 

[JRS]

Now we are going to compare a thin skin human being to a heavily armored thick skin animal? Give me a break! And what will you tell your surgeon when he says he is going to experiment with a vegetable peeler on you rather than a scalpel to remove a part of your brain? Take your VLD match bullets to Africa while in the hands of a PH and tell him you want to experiment with them. I'm not saying they won't work. I am however saying they are a poor excuse as a hunting bullet. Take A look at the video that was shot during a hunt in New Zealand with the Bergers hunting VLD. When one has to follow up his first shot with a second killing shot, (on very small thin skin animals),that is not ethical hunting. The article by the Army is wonderful, but left out one important aspect. In most instances, they shoot to wound, not kill. If you were ever in the Army, you know what I am saying.

 

[clannagael]

And what will you tell your surgeon when he says he is going to experiment with a vegetable peeler on you rather than a scalpel to remove a part of your brain?

LOL ;D

 

[snowpro440]

I have seen antelope and mule deer shot at 700 to 900 yards with a 300gr smk out of an edge an the hole was big enough to put your fist in it ! So I can say shot placement , experience and praticing can get you what you want but I also seen bullets passing right through , Just like a field tip arrow and minimal damage and no expansion when then velocity drops, so you have to do your homework an shoot for bone at extended ranges or pick an expanding type bullet like the ballistic tip or similar..

 

[canuck]

I have seen antelope and mule deer shot at 700 to 900 yards with a 300gr smk out of an edge an the hole was big enough to put your fist in it ! So I can say shot placement , experience and praticing can get you what you want but I also seen bullets passing right through , Just like a field tip arrow and minimal damage and no expansion when then velocity drops, so you have to do your homework an shoot for bone at extended ranges or pick an expanding type bullet like the ballistic tip or similar..

I couldn't agree more. One bullet won't do it all and seasoned hunters know this.A bullet that is fantastic at 100 yards on a certain animal may be the wrong one for that 500 yard shot.It just depends on speed at impact, intended prey etc etc. The problem with a lot of Premium hunting bullets is that they are not nearly accurate enough to make a 500 yard shot.There are simply too many variables and the only way to truly know is by relying experience.This is what is great about the web cause you can get opinions on what has worked/not worked for others and so can point you in the right direction.

I once shot a small coyote broadside at 250 yards with a 130grain sierra game king from a 270 win. I hit it approx 2-3inches behind the shoulder broadside.It killed it in it's tracks but didn't even pass through a 30 lb coyote. That experience told me not to use this bullet at that speed on our canadian whitetails.However if it was loaded down it may work great but I haven't tried it. I bet some of these armchair hunters would be highly recommending this bullet based on literature.

 

[JRS]

Quite true canuck. But... if that distance is inside lets say 300 yards, the chances of that SMK fragmenting is virtually impossible. If it does not hit bone at the shorter distances, nor hit and sever something vital, that pin size hole it creates is going to close up on the hide and off goes an animal that will probably at some point lay down and die from internal bleeding. Ethical? I think not.

 

[camac]

I’ve written this response and deleted several times as it was too aggravated and I don’t really want to inflame this argument too much without getting my point across. Some of you assume a lot because I have not shot an ELK you think I do not know how these bullets would perform. In doing this you assume I have not been a professional hunter for over 30 years of my life, you assume in my professional hunting career I only shot rabbits and targets. You assume I have not been contracted by the government to destroy with ethical one shot kills thousands (in fact hundreds of thousands) of feral animals up to and including the size of buffalo, wild bulls, wild horses and feral pigs. One particular day in memory was 430 “ELK” size animals. I also have had to “destroy” several hundred large wounded animals that have been injured by hunters (I hate to admit it but myself included!
PLEASE LISTEN!
That all being said. The 142 Sierra Matchkings are not designed to expand reliably upon impact. Unreliable expansion means sometimes they will open up quickly and fragment, other times they will not open up at all and pass right through like a FMJ. I actually use SMK’s for some of my hunting but as an ethical hunter would never use them on large game at long distances. I use them for head shooting small game at close distances where a head shot is required each and every time.
Factors that affect this unreliable expansion are mentioned above but are mainly due to velocity and body tissue density. At 800 yards you have low velocity and are unlikely to hit a body part that can cause reliable expansion on every shot (I don’t care what you claim you can do it cannot be done every shot every time by anyone in all conditions).
A good hunting bullet for large game is designed to “mushroom” easily at a range of velocities but then hold together. Spectacular one shot kills can be made from fragmenting hollow points “IF” they penetrate properly and then fragment properly departing all their energy inside the chest cavity. A lot of the “positive” reports in this manner come from a “wow” kill shot where the animal drops like a head shot. You don’t see on youtube the 1 that ran away because the bullet passed straight through or exploded on shoulder blade without enough penetration.
An “ethical shot” is one that ensures a quick clean kill every time. I am the guy that cleans up your errors so please listen to me for no other reason. USE A PROPER HUNTING BULLET!

 

[bozo699]

camac,
Very well put!
Wayne.

 

[camac]

I also apologise to the original poster. I didn't mean to attack him personally As such I will withdraw (delete my earlier postings). But as you can see I have a personal (large) interest in this matter and although semi-retired from this position still get called in for a lot of "clean up" jobs.

Just be aware if you ask this question there will always be a few tell you " I dropped a Buffalo and it went down like a sack of spuds. The SMK's are a Great hunting bullet". They can work but not always!!

Please choose a hunting bullet and stalk to a distance that gets you a much better chance of quick and humane kill (sure they can be done at long distances but the % gets less and less the further you go out. No doubt skill level and bullet quality/accuracy increases the distance you can consistently do it but please choose a distance that you are very confident in. Don't take a shot just to break a record. Choose to be a hunter not a hero.)



...

 

[bozo699]

I have a 6.5-284 Norma with a .188 freebor .297 nk.. The barrel is a Schnieder #5 Polygon 1-8 twist 29 inches long. I am having troubles finding a load for hunting at 300 yards +. My groups at 100 yards are at the 1 inch and at 200 2 inch with Bergers 140 VLD Hunting bullets running 3050 with 50 grains H4350 and CCI BR LR. Do iI need to SLOW it down, or should I try the Sierra Matchkings to hunt Deer and Elk from 200 yards on out to about 800 yards. WHAT SHOULD I DO GUYS????

Brianc74,
I agree with camac, The simple question you ask has got out of hand,a full blown argument if you will I did not intend for this to happen as I am sure you didn't either Brian.
So here is my best answer to your original post. I have never used 6.5 hp bullets for elk so in all reallity I don't know how they will react ( I am not willing to experoment to find out either) I have used .224 cal, .243 and .257 hp bullets for coyotes bears and cougers that I have had problems with around my livestock with mixed results,some clean kills some not so clean,I stopped using them@ this point the last 87 gr hp I shot out of my 25-06 @ a coyote I hit him in a rib full 175 yd broad side shot it blew his whole side off but never killed him I tracked him for a couple of hours found him by a rock jack on a fence row barely alive,I went to different bullets after that. This is the only experience I have to offer and it is what I based my original answer to you on.And my answer stands that I don't believe smk @ least in the smaller cal bullets are suitable for elk!! I wish you all the best of luck
Wayne.

 

[JRS]

bozo699 the 6.5 is quite capable. I have taken a total of 19 Elk in my time. One only with a 300 Weatherby. The remainder with a 264 Win mag. Never had one travel more than 30 yards from the spot it was hit. It boils down to shot placement. While living in Arizona, I became a good friend to the guy who introduced me to Elk hunting. He works for Arizona Fish and Game. He hunts with a 257 Roberts improved and has never had an Elk walk away. Stop and think about what PO Ackley and Roy Weatherby did with their small calibers. Is it the best choice? Probably not. In our country (the US) it has always been," the bigger the better". Not only guns, but most things.

 

[bozo699]

JRS,
Absolutly a .264 win mag will do the job, I have one and love it. I don't use it on elk but I know it would kill one! My dad has used a .243 win for the last few of his golden years to take several elk (with hornady interlock and nosler partitions)
(Not hp match grade bullets) And that is what this topic is really about.
somehow several posts have been wheather the .264 can kill a elk,of course it can.
I did state it was not my prefered cal for elk and it isn't. When using a centerfire rifle I use one of two, my .300wm or my .338-378 weatherby mag. I generally muzzle load for deer and elk with a 50 cal 405 gr soft white lead bullet.usually breaks there front sholders and they go straight down.I did take a 425lb black bear one time with a ruger 10/22, it definitly wasn't the prefered round or leagal but worked as I assume a hp bullet in a 6.5*284 might work, just not prefered THATS ALL.Also I would never knock anybody for hunting elk with .243 and up on elk as long as they were shooting them in there comfort zone and the rifle's capabilty's
Happy Hunting, as its almost here
Wayne.

 

[canuck]

You know , these opinions on calibers and bullets are as old as the hills. I don't know what the stats are but I would be willing to bet the number one cause( by a country mile) of a wounded animal isn't the bullet or caliber chosen but POOR SHOT PLACEMENT. I would also wager most of those are close shots. Guys shooting long range will always have a rest and usually practice a lot. Chances are a 500 yard shot with a rest will be better placed than a 100 yard off hand shot.

 

[bozo699]

canuck,
I couldn't agree more with you. Shot placement @ any distance is everything. I do think there are plenty of reckless people that will try a long shot with out a proper rest or practice. I do believe the serious long range hunters practice a lot like you said and know there weapons/and ammunition! I also would agree that if shot placement could be made everytime,not allmost but everytime then ANY BULLET would do,including hp match bullets. I also would agree with you that most people hunting,not real hunters, but people hunting couldn't consistantly hit a milk jug @ 100 yards off hand!!! I wouldn't allow my children or wife to start hunting untill they could achieve that goal. I as well don't know the stats but I have witnessed many time's in my short 47 years of people that couldn't hit a broadside 100 yd deer,not the boiler room but the whole deer ??? then finely somehow get one in the gut's only to have someone else finnish it off for them With all that being said that is why I told Brianc74 I didn't feel smk's were not suitable for elk! Now Brian may be well capable of making these extreme shots and if he is a well tuned 6.5*284 is well capeable of putting it where you want it, providing all conditions are PERFECT and as we all know generally never is!! and that is why I still stand by my origional statement smk's especially in the smaller cal,s are best suited for targets and thinner skinned animals maybe BUT NOT ELK!!!
Very very sincerly Wayne.

 

[camac]

Canuck, I can actually back up your statement here a bit. Most of the issues I see are indeed poor shot placement (or people doing idiotic things). These have always been there throughout my career. In fact back in the seventies much more of our population here had rifles and nearly every kid had a 22LR, air rifle, hornet or such. There has been a dramatic drop in numbers of shooters since. Indeed there was more wounded animals back then too. I also see a lot of superficial skin wounds that I put down to bullets exploding on sticks or leaves in front of the animal.


HOWEVER, there is an increasing trend of long distance hunting. Encouraged by Youtube and some bullet manufactureres to "push" the boundaries a lot of people without much experience think they can go and shoot an animal at 1000 yards after sighting in at 100 and using a chart. (I am not talking about experienced hunters here but the flow on effect)

Indeed there are genuinely highly skilled hunters out there (and on this site) who can do this. In fact we have a lot of world champions on this site I am sure we have the equivalent in the hunting scene too. This is not aimed at them. Also indeed a 257 Roberts, 6.5 * 284 etc are truly capable of taking down elk sized animals at the appropriate distance. I will even agree a well placed shot with a SMK will do a spectacular job more often than not (It is the "not" I am worrried about).

The original poster may well have the skills and know his own abilities too.

The point is the SMK has unreliable expansion. Berger have made attempts to ensure theirs at least expand by designing appropriate jackets. Often an SMK at low velocity (and high velocity) will not expand at all. Animals can survive a bullet shot to the head without expansion (In fact many people have too). Even a good shot to the chest can pass between ribs and miss every organ. The point is none of the energy is transferred and no big wound channel. It is pointless having 1200 lbs of energy if it is not applied buit all energy passes straight through. When they do fragment, no attempt is made to retain some weight so that they competely diintegrate. This can lead to very low penetration although.

Having 40-70% of the bullet hold together and penetrate is one thing but the design of the bullet to reliably expand is very important.

Hunting within your skills is the other important factor

Original posters skills aside. I firmly believe a SMK should NOT be used on ELK at 800 yards and agree with the advice from Sierra -it should not be used for hunting them at all.

CANUCK a 500 yard shot by an experienced hunter with good bullets is a whole lot different to 800 with an SMK!!

Those of you who use the SMK and think they are great it is only a matter of time before your game runs off, you track it for miles and it gets away with "I am sure I hit him in the boiler room". That will not happen with a good hunting bullet at an appropriate distance for your skill level and caliber choice.