shoulderd prefit vs gunsmith barrel

[GSRswapandslow]

Im very much considering buying a Zermatt Origin action. They offer shouldered prefit barrels for this action...

I know the argument goes back and forth with barrel nut barrels, but what about shouldered prefit?

What about the higher quality prefits like bugholes or keystone that use known quality blanks and do excellent chambers?

 

[Terry]

The key is getting all the clearances right. A Gunsmith fits everything as it should be with your barrel and action. Only top custom actions hold their dementions close enough to make a barrel for the action without having it in hand.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I don't like nuts, they transfer the "pointing" of the barrels to the threads. I do "prefits" all the time for Bats, Bordens, Pandas, ext. The most important part of chambering is taking the time to really dial in a barrel. I mean really get it as good as your indicators can read. That takes time. Secondary but also important is cutting the chambers close enough so the customer can use the same brass and dies in every chamber, without adjusting them. Prefits just mean the action is not in hand. The real difference is cost. Your asking if a cheap chamber job is as good as an expensive one. Unless your smith is retired, no.

 

[GSRswapandslow]

but do those dimensions HONESTLY make a difference? we've all seen how good a factory savage can shoot...and a CBI has won at national level events..

 

[Alex Wheeler]

That depends on the customer, a CBI or Savage has not won a group agg at a Nats. Thats how I measure accuracy, group. What you need to think about is how many Savages and CBI's are capable of that. Consistency.

 

[GSRswapandslow]

Nut barrels, no. But what of the shouldered prefits....quality ones

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The prefit is not the question, its the quality of the chamber. If the guy doing the prefit is taking the time needed, its just as good as if the action was in hand. Some actions you never need, they hold their thread timing consistent, others I like to have one time. After that theres no need if you can measure.

 

[Ranger188]

If the smith has worked with Bighorns before, he knows the dimensions
and can repeat a barrel again and again. No need for a go - no gage for
every caliber you change to. He has it head spaced for you.
He can cut any caliber that he has a reamer for.
Just a little more expensive, but less work for you.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Greg Young (Bugholes) chambers shouldered prefits with Bartlein barrels. He does other barrel brands also. Keystone, Straightjacket. Their are others. You don't have to use a nut if you don't want too.

Im very much considering buying a Zermatt Origin action. They offer shouldered prefit barrels for this action...

I know the argument goes back and forth with barrel nut barrels, but what about shouldered prefit?

What about the higher quality prefits like bugholes or keystone that use known quality blanks and do excellent chambers?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You get what you pay for. When you see a shouldered prefit finished ready to install for the price of a barrel blank or chamber job alone, sure itll shoot and according to what you want to do it may be fine. A shouldered prefit done by hand by a competent gunsmith is way different than a mass produced one done on a cnc. Banging steel is a different requirement than spending thousands to compete for an agg- thats the difference. Nut barrels are in a different ballpark. Ill echo alex above on them.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Now, I'm not knocking any game here, but I've seen .5moa guns do very well at long range. That's a guaranteed dead last place in short range! All I'm saying is a very good shooter can take a .5 moa rifle and be competitive at 1000 yards but is a solid dead last unless someone else "breaks" at 100-200. It is, what it is. You can't win with junk at either but the Indian and pulling the trigger at the right time matter more and more, as distance increases.

So...all out precision requirements actually decrease as distances increase, on average. Again, it is what it is. I'm in no way saying you can leave anything on the table, in any game...unless you can outshoot them!

Any competitive accuracy shooting sport today requires good equipment, good tune and minimal mistakes.

It's just that simple! Sounds easy, right?

 

[LRPV]

Now, I'm not knocking any game here, but I've seen .5moa guns do very well at long range. That's a guaranteed dead last place in short range! All I'm saying is a very good shooter can take a .5 moa rifle and be competitive at 1000 yards but is a solid dead last unless someone else "breaks" at 100-200. It is, what it is. You can't win with junk at either but the Indian and pulling the trigger at the right time matter more and more, as distance increases.

So...all out precision requirements actually decrease as distances increase, on average. Again, it is what it is. I'm in no way saying you can leave anything on the table, in any game...unless you can outshoot them!

Any competitive accuracy shooting sport today requires good equipment, good tune and minimal mistakes.

It's just that simple! Sounds easy, right?

I’m a little confused by your comments. Are you saying that I can take a 1/2 MOA rifle to an IBS 1000 yard match and whoop everyone’s ass where the best I could possibly shoot would be a 5” group? I would question your thinking since I have actually shot such a match before.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Now, I'm not knocking any game here, but I've seen .5moa guns do very well at long range. That's a guaranteed dead last place in short range! All I'm saying is a very good shooter can take a .5 moa rifle and be competitive at 1000 yards but is a solid dead last unless someone else "breaks" at 100-200. It is, what it is. You can't win with junk at either but the Indian and pulling the trigger at the right time matter more and more, as distance increases.

So...all out precision requirements actually decrease as distances increase, on average. Again, it is what it is. I'm in no way saying you can leave anything on the table, in any game...unless you can outshoot them!

Any competitive accuracy shooting sport today requires good equipment, good tune and minimal mistakes.

It's just that simple! Sounds easy, right?

Not in BR, you better be ready to shoot in the 2's or better if conditions are good at 1k. If a rifle wont shoot 2's in good conditions, I wouldnt take it to a match. In fact, the reason I got into scope checking was a rifle that wouldnt shoot better than 5-6" at 1k for 10 shots. If you mean score, ok, different story.

 

[INTJ]

Now, I'm not knocking any game here, but I've seen .5moa guns do very well at long range. That's a guaranteed dead last place in short range! All I'm saying is a very good shooter can take a .5 moa rifle and be competitive at 1000 yards but is a solid dead last unless someone else "breaks" at 100-200. It is, what it is. You can't win with junk at either but the Indian and pulling the trigger at the right time matter more and more, as distance increases.

So...all out precision requirements actually decrease as distances increase, on average. Again, it is what it is. I'm in no way saying you can leave anything on the table, in any game...unless you can outshoot them!

Any competitive accuracy shooting sport today requires good equipment, good tune and minimal mistakes.

It's just that simple! Sounds easy, right?

.5 MOA rifles do not do well in LR BR at 600 and 1000 yds. IBS or NBRSA. At 600 yds, a rifle needs to be able to shoot under an inch in good conditions, and under 3" at 1000.

While short range precision is indeed greater than long range precision, it's not as much as one might think. At 200 yds, an official NBRSA 5-shot screamer group is .250". A screamer group is better than the average groups that are shot. My LR BR rifles occasionally shoot .250" 5-shot groups at 200 yds. More often they are shooting between .3" and .4" at 200 yds. That is with long range bullets that will shoot well at 1000 yds.

Regardless of all that, there is no way a 1/2 MOA rifle is going to do well in LR BR. Even a 1/4 MOA rifle is on the edge.

 

[JFrank]

@INTJ
So should the rest of us mere mortals just stay home

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not in BR, you better be ready to shoot in the 2's or better if conditions are good at 1k. If a rifle wont shoot 2's in good conditions, I wouldnt take it to a match. In fact, the reason I got into scope checking was a rifle that wouldnt shoot better than 5-6" at 1k for 10 shots. If you mean score, ok, different story.

A gun that shoots .2's is no longer competitive in short range, Alex...group or score and hasn't been for 10-20 years. That was my point.

This isn't a long vs short range point..but rather, pointing out that the shooter has more input as distance increases. Still...a .5 gun has won at 1000 annd would be dead last in a short range match unless someone broke or quit.

 

[LRPV]

A gun that shoots .2's is no longer competitive in short range, Alex...group or score and hasn't been for 10-20 years. That was my point.

This isn't a long vs short range point..but rather, pointing out that the shooter has more input as distance increases. Still...a .5 gun has won at 1000 annd would be dead last in a short range match unless someone broke or quit.

Just because you see a 5” group win a 1k match doesn’t mean that rifle was only capable of 1/2 moa accuracy. It means the conditions were not ideal.

OP, a shouldered prefit is far easier than one with a nut. The nut has allowed the average person to pretend to be a gunsmith at minimal cost. If you change barrels more than a couple times in a lifetime, the shouldered barrel is the way to go. Headspace is exactly the the same every time you screw that barrel on. (Within reason) Consistency is what I pay for when buying custom actions, Premium barrel blanks (IE Krieger, Bartlein, Brux, Rock and maybe a couple other boutique shops) paying for stock bedding, a gunsmith with not only the knowledge it takes but also the reamers that work for the desired purpose. All this experience comes at a cost that you just aren’t gonna get from a $300 prefit. Do those prefit barrels shoot good, yes but they are on a different playing field and aimed at a different audience. Everyone has to start somewhere and for me it was Savages and prefit nutted barrels. I was ecstatic at first but after awhile I wanted more. It’s a natural progression.

 

[INTJ]

A gun that shoots .2's is no longer competitive in short range, Alex...group or score and hasn't been for 10-20 years. That was my point.

This isn't a long vs short range point..but rather, pointing out that the shooter has more input as distance increases. Still...a .5 gun has won at 1000 annd would be dead last in a short range match unless someone broke or quit.

At 200 yds .2" is competitive. And a 1/2 MOA gun hasn't been competitive at 600 or 1000 yds in 10-15 years.

 

[INTJ]

@INTJ
So should the rest of us mere mortals just stay home

We are all mere mortals and the answer is to keep tuning until you get to .15 MOA or better , and tracking until you don't have to adjust.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

You BR boys can fight amongst yourselves.

I'll just say that nutted setups give the illusion of switch barrel capability. The reality is, nutted barrels are a pain in the ass to headspace the exact same way every time. I know somebody will be along to tell me they swap barrels on their savage to within .0001 every time, I just know I was never able to.

What it really does is prevent you from having to go to the gun smith to get a new barrel, but you end up with the thing on there until its shot out, because it's such a chore to swap barrels.

Shouldered barrels are true "switch barrel rigs". Takes ~2-3 minutes, and it's the exact same every single time.

Ultimately though, the right answer is to give your smith your action as many times as he needs. You'll usually end up with a better result...at least in my experience.

Edit: BTW - I doubt anyone asking this question is planning to shoot BR. If so, they'll find out about barrel nuts and pre-fits the expensive way.