Shoulder not bumping back when resizing

[BoydAllen]

The die may not be the problem, and he may have other rifles in the same caliber that do not have the same issue, or acquire one at a later time. Shell holders are cheap and easy to modify.

 

[CJ6]

.

But to my surprise, even with the die turned down all the way, the shoulder/datum-line did not move (no bump)...which I had expected it to. Hence my question...is it the brass not expanding when fired or is there something wrong with the die.

To your point, yes there is no need to push it back .002 right now. The shoulder is not moving, even with the die fully seated, and there are no issues with chambering. All appears to be well. I was merely curious why the shoulder wasn't moving, again assuming that the brass had expanded to the point where a full length resizing die would push the shoulder back.

My thoughts on this.....If the brass isn't there to "move" (hasn't grown enough)then the die isn't going to move something that isn't there. Now that may be because the die "may" be deeper chambered OR that the brass just hasn't "grown" enough yet.... I'm thinking it's the latter of the 2. If you can take a fired un-sized case and chamber it without issues it doesn't need to be set back.

 

[/VH]

He sounds like he is new at reloading and imagining problems that don't exist because of all of the things he reads on this website. I have been reloading for 45 years and never had a case head separation. I think you have to have extreme pressures to get head separation. I have never seen one or heard of anyone I know having one. Get real it's just a hunting caliber factory rifle not made for serious competition. All the things he reads about to make perfect ammo probably won't make his rifle shoot any better. Most hunter type people don't have the bench skills to shoot groups the rifle is capable of. I see people at the range every day that have custom rifles much more expensive than mine and I almost always shoot groups much smaller than the other guys. You shoot small groups at the range not on the loading bench.

Question:
Someone recommended grinding .020" off the shell holder. The case body is tapered and the die is tapered. If you push the case to far in the die won't it size the body too much? There is an assumption that the die was not machined properly?

Well I've been reloading for 46 years and I've seen several head separations and near separations, some on 6th firing of the brass, with none of the loads particularly hot and the primer pockets still nice and tight. Push the shoulder back 8 or 10 thousandths every time you size and you'll eventually find yourself a separation.

Seems to me, he's new at reloading and he's trying to understand what he's doing and do it well.

Question: What's wrong with that?

OP,
Get real, you just have an old junker hunting rifle and don't have the skills to shoot it worth a crap and there ain't no use trying to learn anything. You should just buy the cheapest shells you can find at Walmart.

Answers to your questions:

1. "If you push the case to far in the die won't it size the body too much?"

I spect that'd depend on the chamber and die dimensions and how far too far.

2. "There is an assumption that the die was not machined properly?"

Putting a question mark behind it don't make it a question.

 

[mytwo60]

Geezus guys. It's not bumping back because he is using a FL die with probably the expander ball attached (he is new to reloading). This means it is bumping back but the neck/shoulder is getting pulled back to the original length when the expander is coming back out.

 

[/VH]

Geezus guys. It's not bumping back because he is using a FL die with probably the expander ball attached (he is new to reloading). This means it is bumping back but the neck/shoulder is getting pulled back to the original length when the expander is coming back out.

I Bet not!

 

[Hondo64d]

I have definitely had this happen. All one has to do to observe it is to take out the expander, resize and measure to the shoulder and do the same with the expander in place. Definite difference in measurements between with and without expander with some dies.

But, I also have a die that will definitely not screw down enough to bring a case headspace back to specs. Not a problem unless you are running chambers with minimum headspace, which I typically do.

I have also had dies that do not size the cartridge base sufficiently, which, unless you do some careful measuring, can lead you to believe that the shoulder is not being bumped enough. This has only been a problem when trying to fire brass in different chambers though.

John

Geezus guys. It's not bumping back because he is using a FL die with probably the expander ball attached (he is new to reloading). This means it is bumping back but the neck/shoulder is getting pulled back to the original length when the expander is coming back out.

 

[jlow]

He sounds like he is new at reloading and imagining problems that don't exist because of all of the things he reads on this website. I have been reloading for 45 years and never had a case head separation. I think you have to have extreme pressures to get head separation. I have never seen one or heard of anyone I know having one. Get real it's just a hunting caliber factory rifle not made for serious competition. All the things he reads about to make perfect ammo probably won't make his rifle shoot any better. Most hunter type people don't have the bench skills to shoot groups the rifle is capable of. I see people at the range every day that have custom rifles much more expensive than mine and I almost always shoot groups much smaller than the other guys. You shoot small groups at the range not on the loading bench.

Question:
Someone recommended grinding .020" off the shell holder. The case body is tapered and the die is tapered. If you push the case to far in the die won't it size the body too much? There is an assumption that the die was not machined properly?

Webster, case head separation is always due to over sizing and not extreme pressure, I've seen lots of people who over bumps their brass and lead to case head separation.

 

[fguffey]

My cases do not have head space and there is something about ‘BUMP; that makes me think of an accident. I can not bump the shoulder back because the shoulder on my cases do not move, if the shoulder on my cases moved the case would have to bulge between the shoulder and case head.

Then there is that thing about the shoulder on my fired cases moving, if the shoulder on my fired cases moves case head separation has started. One more time; I have fired cases in my chambers that were shorter from the shoulder of the case to the case head .127" shorter than the chamber when measured from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face without case head separation. That is .127” clearance before I pulled the trigger.

And then there are dies and shell holders, I determine the ability of the die with shell holder to restore the case to minimum length/full length. For everything else the manufacturer built the dies with threads.

F. Guffey

 

[jlow]

My cases do not have head space and there is something about ‘BUMP; that makes me think of an accident. I can not bump the shoulder back because the shoulder on my cases do not move, if the shoulder on my cases moved the case would have to bulge between the shoulder and case head.

Then there is that thing about the shoulder on my fired cases moving, if the shoulder on my fired cases moves case head separation has started. One more time; I have fired cases in my chambers that were shorter from the shoulder of the case to the case head .127" shorter than the chamber when measured from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face without case head separation. That is .127” clearance before I pulled the trigger.

And then there are dies and shell holders, I determine the ability of the die with shell holder to restore the case to minimum length/full length. For everything else the manufacturer built the dies with threads.

F. Guffey

Actually “bump” is indeed a misnomer. When you size a case, the body and case head starts out too big in diameter and is sized smaller, when you do this, that stuff has to go somewhere, that where is in fact pushing the shoulders up. If you size a case with a body only die, you will find the shoulder will increase significantly in length relative to where it was before you size it. When using a FL sizer, the shoulders on the sizing die just prevent it from going bigger than the die and we call that “bump” but it is really just stopping…

Shooting a .127” shorter case will lead to case head separation, if not the first time, certainly in repeated insults. If you don’t believe me, just keep at it and you will find out.

 

[fguffey]

If you size a case with a body only die, you will find the shoulder will increase significantly in length relative to where it was before you size it.

If you size a case with a body only die

Put another way; I do not know what happens when you size a case, but when I size a case I understands what happens to the shoulder. I was body sizing cases before there were body sizing dies. When Redding started all of the confusion about body dies I called them. I explained to them what was being past around the reloading forums was impossible, it was about that time someone decided the shoulder of the case was part of the case body and it was rather silly for a reloader to think they could size the body with total disregard for the shoulder of the case. After that I thought reloaders were going to require theory with bushing and do-nuts.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Put another way; I do not know what happens when you size a case, but when I size a case I understands what happens to the shoulder.

I do not know what happens when you size a case,

And now you are telling me what happens when I size a case? I said my shoulders do not move I said when I fire a case and the case stretched between the case head and case body I am practicing bad reloading habits. And then there has to be something you do not understand about firing and sizing a case. The case I fired with .127" clearance shortened more than .254", it was ejected with only a hint of a case neck. Again, the shoulder on my case did not move. Bump? I have presses that bump; my presses that bump are called bump ogresses. I have presses that do not bump; my presses that do not bump are not cam over presses.


F. Guffey

 

[/VH]

And now you are telling me what happens when I size a case? I said my shoulders do not move I said when I fire a case and the case stretched between the case head and case body I am practicing bad reloading habits. And then there has to be something you do not understand about firing and sizing a case. The case I fired with .127" clearance shortened more than .254", it was ejected with only a hint of a case neck. Again, the shoulder on my case did not move. Bump? I have presses that bump; my presses that bump are called bump ogresses. I have presses that do not bump; my presses that do not bump are not cam over presses.


F. Guffey

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up! The Guffster's telling the truth. Many of us state, incorrectly, that we bump or set back the shoulder when in fact we actually push the case shoulder against the die shoulder, which stops the case shoulder from moving. Then, we push the case head closer to the shoulder. Then, there is that thing about FWIW.

 

[dedogs]

presses that bump are called bump ogresses

The only thing I can find in the dictionary says an ogresse is a female ogre.
I'm going to take a wild guess that your presses that do not cam over are arbor presses and that you make your own dies?

 

[BoydAllen]

Just to be clear, there are a lot of things related to reloading that should not be taken literally. What is commonly referred to as the ogive length of a loaded round really has nothing to do with the length of the bullet's ogive. What Hornady chooses to call a headspace gauge is really just a comparitor, and what are commonly referred to as body dies, also size case shoulders, but not their necks. Remove the bushing from a busing type FL die and you have something that functions exactly as a body die does. If someone tells me that he does not have to bump back the shoulders of his cases that have been fired repeatedly, what his is telling me is that his loads create relatively low pressures, or that he is challenged in the area of taking accurate measuements. Taking that to the extreme, under normal circumstances it is quite likely that low pressure cast bullet loads will shorten the shoulder to head dimension of rimless cases each time that they are fired. This is not a book thing, I have tested, and measured.

 

[fguffey]

Taking that to the extreme, under normal circumstances it is quite likely that low pressure cast bullet loads will shorten the shoulder to head dimension of rimless cases each time that they are fired. This is not a book thing, I have tested, and measured.

And if I fired a case and it got shorter from the shoulder to the case head I could give you two reasons for the 'phenomena. Then there is that other problem, I fired cases that shortened .045" from the mouth of the case to the case head. Even then; the shoulder of the case did not move.

F. Guffey

 

[Hummer]

I have had to trim the bottom off about 25 dies in the last 30 years as they were chambered too deep. Normally it takes about .005-.010" off to do it but one I had to take off .020" to get them to bump shoulder.

Taking material off the shell holder can mess the die settings up on other calibers using same shell holder size.

 

[fguffey]

have had to trim the bottom off about 25 dies in the last 30 years as they were chambered too deep. Normally it takes about .005-.010" off to do it but one I had to take off .020" to get them to bump shoulder.

Hummer, I am the only reloader on this forum that understood a word you said. If I had the luxury to disagree I would suggest you applied the wrong rational.

There are reloaders that purchased Redding Competition shell holder sets for $60.00 because there is something about sizing a case they do not understand. I have a #6 set of Redding Competition shell holders I paid $5.00 for. I do not use them but I have the set just in case. Out of the 5 shell holders 3 are off by .001” each. Again, I am the only reloader that can handle that.

Again, I have one rifle that has an extra .011” added to the length of the chamber, that makes the chamber field reject length + .002”; I have always thought the story about how so many military rifles got into that condition was interesting. For me; not a problem, I add .014” to the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head, that gives me the magic .002” clearance. Everyone else increases the head space of the case but; because my cases do not have head space I use the case to off set the length of the chamber.

F. Guffey