Shoulder not bumping back when resizing

[Hondo64d]

Ok, so I just started using a set of Sinclair headspace gauges. I've been resizing some once fired .204 Ruger brass and I'm a little surprised to see that no matter how far down I take the resizing die, the shoulder will not bump back. I'm trying to take it back .002. Basically, the brass is staying the same length as in its fire formed state. The only reasons I can come up with are....

1. Since it's once fired brass, it hasn't really expanded that much. Maybe will grow in length after a few more cycles. I suspect this might be the problem because when I take the brass to a complete reloaded round, there aren't any issues chambering.

2. There's something wrong with the resizing die. I've read this can be an issue from time to time with resizing dies...a defect in machining.

Its a Redding die and before I consider replacing it, I'm interested in hearing opinions from more experienced reloaders. I guess if scenario #1 is possible, there's nothing wrong with the die and no need to replace it.

Thoughts?

Are you sure the shoulder isn't moving during sizing? The reason I ask is that I have had dies that did not size the base of the case adequately to allow the brass to chamber fully. I automatically assumed I wasn't bumping the shoulder enough, but when I measured, the shoulder was clearly being bumped. A small base body die fixed the problem.

That being said, I have a Forster die that will not screw down far enough to bump the shoulder back to SAAMI specs. I'll be sending that one back to Forster as soon as I get some time off.

John

 

[/VH]

You're not mistaking knowledge for caring are you?

Snarky dude!

 

[Steve Ladino]

Short chamber? short brass?

 

[dmoran]

e.

As I have said many times before’ I can measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face three different ways without a head space gage.

Mistaking knowledge for caring?; no trying to make an impossible point. There are a very few of us that can figure it out in a short period of time, then there are those that will never figure it out no matter how long they stare at it.

Anyhow, the old smith worked with a bunch of snarky smiths, had I worked with the man I would have found a nice way to ask “How do you do that?” Or “What am I doing wrong?” Anyhow, I sat down one day and worked out three different methods and or techniques for doing the same thing faster and more accurately; and not one of the three methods and or techniques are acceptable.

F. Guffey

 

[Brians356]

OP: You don't write; you don't call. Here we all are talking among ourselves, and the OP exited, stage left, on Monday.

I thought y'all might get a kick out of this (speaking of shoulder bumping, after all):

I dug out a couple of old 250 Ackley Imp cases, leaving the years of patina on them for illustrative properties, and ran one of them through a 250 Savage FL die, camming over against a standard shell holder in a Rock Chucker press.

The sized case OAL grew by a full 0.038". The shiny ring in the middle of the shoulder is what used to be the point of the AI shoulder!

Prior to squeezing the case in the FL die, I "annealed" the neck / shoulder with a small kitchen style butane torch (crème brûlée, anyone?) for 16 seconds. You can see the discoloration below the shoulder. (You don't need $200 worth of annealing gear to do this, folks - you really don't.)
-

 

[copperking81]

Wow...lots of replies! I was not expecting so many. And yes, my apologies for not responding sooner. It's been a very busy week at work and I'm just now getting an opportunity to sit down and think about something other than grinding away in bowels of the proverbial salt mine.

I need to read through these and catch up!

 

[copperking81]

One firing does not generally make brass tight in the head to shoulder direction. In fact, if I do not have the opportunity to produce a case that is its maximum in that direction, by firing it several times, neck sized, with stout loads, I find that I have great success simply FL sizing to produce the same dimension as once fired brass (fired brass measured with primer removed or reseated well below flush). Why are you trying to bump once fired brass .002 in the first place? I routinely bump half that much from what a tight case measures and as long as I consistent results, my brass chambers just right. In the short range benchrest game problems such as yours are generally addressed by taking a little off of the top of the shell holder, but I would not go there unless you have a tight bolt after sizing and you track that down to lack of shoulder bump.

Thanks! This is what I think is going on. To answer your question about why I'm trying to bump back .002...because I was under the impression that once you fired brass, it would expand to fit the mold of the chamber. I'm relatively new to reloading and based off what I've read so far, I drew that conclusion so was surprised to see that I couldn't get it to bump back. Everything I've read and seen so far suggests/implies (but doesn't directly address it) that the brass would expand. Because I'm somewhat new to this, I thought I would get some opinions from those more experienced.

The explanations provided around why and how to test brass in the chamber (i.e. remove the firing pin) make sense. I'll have to give that a try this weekend. But I don't think it will make much of a difference in this case as I'm pretty sure the brass (as you describe) probably just hasn't grown that much.

 

[copperking81]

Removing the firing pin and spring allows you to feel the bolt resistance to pushing the case shoulder against the chamber shoulder. With the firing pin in the bolt the effort to compress the spring masks the effort to push the case shoulder into the chamber shoulder. With the firing pin assembly removed if you don't feel resistance to closing the bolt the shoulder doesn't need to be bumped back IMO. In other words no resistance to closing the bolt you have clearance. Sounds to me that you don't have a problem. Sometimes I think that people that have to have a lot of tools, gauges and measuring devices make up problems. I have fired at least 20 thou rounds without measuring shoulder push back?

Buy Tony Boyers book from MidWay USA, they have low shipping charges. Tony has 3 times as many Hall of Fame points as his nearest competitor. I use his method to adjust dies.

A short explanation:
1. remove the firing pin assembly.
2. Adjust your die so it touches the shell holder.
3. Back the die out maybe a half turn.
4. Get a feel for the effort to close the bolt on an empty chamber.
4. Put fired unprimed unloaded case into the rifle and close the bolt. If there is resistance to closing the bolt turn the die down a tiny amount and check resistance to closing. If there is no resistance you have clearance.
5. Keep turning the die down in small steps until you feel a very slight resistance to closing the bolt. Check the same case several times to check for spring back. You want a very small resistance to closing the bolt.

Buy Tony's book to get the proper explanation.

Thank you for the explanation!

 

[Brians356]

If you don't know how to remove the firing pin and extractor, or don't feel inclined to bother, just move the shoulder back until the bolt feels no stiffer than without a case. I doubt a majority of folks on this thread strip their bolts for this. I assume a 204 Ruger is for varmint hunting, not benchrest competition.
-

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I sat down one day and worked out three different methods and or techniques for doing the same thing faster and more accurately; and not one of the three methods and or techniques are acceptable.

F. Guffey

So you figured out 3 ways that dont work? Or is this some more cryptic stuff that nobody accepts because youve never told anybody how you do it? And then theres the possibility that its both! If i came up with 3 ways to do something and nobody thought it was acceptable id consider those 3 methods a complete failure! Im a degreed engineer and back when i were one no matter what i came up with if it was going to work i could convince somebody that it would before it was ever built! There may be other/ better ways to do something but if it actually works all will agree it works. Its just common sense!

 

[copperking81]

Watch this video! All will be revealed. With the firing pin spring and ejector still installed, the bolt cannot provide subtle resistance feedback when closing on the case.

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This video was really helpful. Thanks!

 

[Webster]

This video was really helpful. Thanks!

Isn't this what 50 replies have been trying to tell you since Feb 24? I don't think you ever proved the shoulders need to be bumped.

 

[copperking81]

Isn't this what 50 replies have been trying to tell you since Feb 24? I don't think you ever proved the shoulders need to be bumped.

I never said they did “need” to be bumped. In fact, that was largely the point of my question. I was under the false premise that once brass is fired it will form fit (every time) to the chamber and need to be bumped back in order to chamber properly going forward. Surprised to see that I couldn’t bump the shoulder back (now that I was actually measuring it) I came to the conclusion that it likely hadn’t expanded much if at all (or possibly the die may have a problem). Being relatively new to this procedure, I came here for some opinions, which I got within a few hours and most pretty much validated my conclusion that one firing won’t expand it that much.

I didn’t think when I started the thread last weekend (not on Feb 24th (2013)…that is when I joined) that the conversation would continue much past what it did when I signed off. I do however, very much appreciate everyone who took the time to respond and wanted to thank a few directly.

 

[Webster]

I never said they did “need” to be bumped. In fact, that was largely the point of my question. I was under the false premise that once brass is fired it will form fit (every time) to the chamber and need to be bumped back in order to chamber properly going forward. Surprised to see that I couldn’t bump the shoulder back (now that I was actually measuring it) I came to the conclusion that it likely hadn’t expanded much if at all (or possibly the die may have a problem). Being relatively new to this procedure, I came here for some opinions, which I got within a few hours and most pretty much validated my conclusion that one firing won’t expand it that much.

I didn’t think when I started the thread last weekend (not on Feb 24th (2013)…that is when I joined) that the conversation would continue much past what it did when I signed off. I do however, very much appreciate everyone who took the time to respond and wanted to thank a few directly.

This video was really helpful. Thanks!

RE: the video
The video clearly states the firing pin was removed. Your shooting a 204, I assume it's for varmint hunting. Why would you even care what the shoulder bump is if the bolt closes with normal force and you get acceptable groups.

 

[copperking81]

RE: the video
The video clearly states the firing pin was removed. Your shooting a 204, I assume it's for varmint hunting. Why would you even care what the shoulder bump is if the bolt closes with normal force and you get acceptable groups.

Brass life. I'm using a FL resizing die which will bump the shoulder if the brass has expanded. If the die is turned down all the way to the base of the shell holder, that may bump it back more than necessary. From what I've read and seen in reloading video's, you could see up to .010 bump which obviously isn't necessary. To limit that work/stress on the brass, I was trying to calibrate the die to keep the bump to a maximum .002.

But to my surprise, even with the die turned down all the way, the shoulder/datum-line did not move (no bump)...which I had expected it to. Hence my question...is it the brass not expanding when fired or is there something wrong with the die.

To your point, yes there is no need to push it back .002 right now. The shoulder is not moving, even with the die fully seated, and there are no issues with chambering. All appears to be well. I was merely curious why the shoulder wasn't moving, again assuming that the brass had expanded to the point where a full length resizing die would push the shoulder back.

No clue what your point about the video is. Yes, I now understand what the purpose is in removing the firing pin when checking brass and chambering. Makes sense.

 

[/VH]

Stick with it copperking81, you're on the right track, not only for best brass life but for understanding and building accurate loads as well as getting a good handle on the chamber/cartridge relationship. I see you are already adept at responding civilly and intelligently to cranky sounding ole codgers.

 

[Webster]

Brass life. I'm using a FL resizing die which will bump the shoulder if the brass has expanded. If the die is turned down all the way to the base of the shell holder, that may bump it back more than necessary. From what I've read and seen in reloading video's, you could see up to .010 bump which obviously isn't necessary. To limit that work/stress on the brass, I was trying to calibrate the die to keep the bump to a maximum .002.

But to my surprise, even with the die turned down all the way, the shoulder/datum-line did not move (no bump)...which I had expected it to. Hence my question...is it the brass not expanding when fired or is there something wrong with the die.

To your point, yes there is no need to push it back .002 right now. The shoulder is not moving, even with the die fully seated, and there are no issues with chambering. All appears to be well. I was merely curious why the shoulder wasn't moving, again assuming that the brass had expanded to the point where a full length resizing die would push the shoulder back.

No clue what your point about the video is. Yes, I now understand what the purpose is in removing the firing pin when checking brass and chambering. Makes sense.

The brass doesn't fail at the shoulder.

 

[/VH]

The brass doesn't fail at the shoulder.

Seems to me the OP is likely quite conscious of that and it also appears to me that he started this thread in an attempt to gain a better understanding of the mechanics of the chamber/case/die/shellholder relationship, in order to mitigate the potential for case head separation; which I'm thinking ain't a bad idea. ....but maybe I just don't get it.

 

[Webster]

Seems to me the OP is likely quite conscious of that and it also appears to me that he started this thread in an attempt to gain a better understanding of the mechanics of the chamber/case/die/shellholder relationship, in order to mitigate the potential for case head separation; which I'm thinking ain't a bad idea. ....but maybe I just don't get it.

He sounds like he is new at reloading and imagining problems that don't exist because of all of the things he reads on this website. I have been reloading for 45 years and never had a case head separation. I think you have to have extreme pressures to get head separation. I have never seen one or heard of anyone I know having one. Get real it's just a hunting caliber factory rifle not made for serious competition. All the things he reads about to make perfect ammo probably won't make his rifle shoot any better. Most hunter type people don't have the bench skills to shoot groups the rifle is capable of. I see people at the range every day that have custom rifles much more expensive than mine and I almost always shoot groups much smaller than the other guys. You shoot small groups at the range not on the loading bench.

Question:
Someone recommended grinding .020" off the shell holder. The case body is tapered and the die is tapered. If you push the case to far in the die won't it size the body too much? There is an assumption that the die was not machined properly?

 

[mr45man]

If your die is F,ed up why would you mess up your shell holder? Take it off the die or trash it
all together. I would do some serious measuring before hand. And afterwards.