Shoulder bump problems

[K22]

Ok sweet I'll have to try that and I'll have break out my lube bad and my little tin of imperial again. Love that stuff and your right I'm still on the same tin o bought probably five years ago! And your right about the measurement had a little brain fart right there lol

I've been using Imperial for many years now. It works terrific if you apply it properly meaning don't over do it. A can will last you many years. It's highly economical.

Here's the way I apply it*. I lightly swirl my trigger finger and the next finger around in the tin to obtain a light coating on the fingers. I then rub them against the thumb to provide a uniform coating on thumb and fingers. I then take a case, and apply it to the body of the case avoiding the shoulder area by working the circumference with my thumb and fingers. Then I stand the case in a lube rack (Sinclair) and proceed to the next case. The lube rack prevents the case from picking up any debris.

Yes, it takes a little longer than a pad but you obtain, my opinion, a much more uniform coating and the optitmum amount of lube because you can feel the amount of lube on the case. Cases size easily - never had a stuck case with Imperial or shoulder dents using this method. Also, you don't pick up debris from a lube pad that is sometimes present after long term use of the pad.

*Credit Frank Shuster for teaching me this method and it works terrific.

 

[K22]

Had a feeling I should have stuck with my lube pad And yes I'm pretty sure. Ram all the way up screw your die down it it touches your shell holder. But it's still set up and I'll take a picture and post it when I get home, mabye I'm missing something and honestly I'm not sure about cam over I don't think I do . And yes the measurements are my shoulder bumps. Think they came out my rifle at 1.458 and I'm trying to get them to 1.458 for 4 thou of bump.

If the FL die is set up to provide some cam over so that the die is at least touching the shoulder, you will avoid extruding the case causing it to length which needs to be avoided.

By screwing the die down, a little at a time, about 1/8 turn or so, you can increase the cam over and start pushing the shoulder back. The degree of screw down will vary depending on how much play is in the linkages of your press, the hardness of the case, type of cases, rifle fired in, etc.

As mentioned by others, a pause at the top end of the sizing stroke will tend to produce more uniform sizing. In other words, take you time, and develop a uniform stroke. The type of lube and application can also affect the uniformity of sizing.

Fired case head space has to be measured with the primer either removed or seat below the surface of rim to avoid a false reading. You should measure several cases to obtain the fired case head space dimension range. I suspect that not all of them will be exactly 1.458 especially using average quality cases and firing in a semi-auto. Some variation is likely even probable. In other words, don't assume all of them have the same fired headspace dimension.

Obtaining uniform measurements is also subject to operator error using the caliper. To obtain repeatable measurements, you need to develop a consistent technique of measuring the case. I lightly rotate the case to seat it in the caliper. You also need to apply uniform pressure to the jaws of the caliper to obtain repeatable measurement. You can check your technique by re measuring and see if you get the same measurement.

By adjusting the FL die to push back the shoulder about .003 (for semi autos) for the case with the largest head space dimension in that lot, you should be good for the rest of the cases. That will mean that fire cases with headspace less than the maximum you measured won't be pushed back .003" but that shouldn't matter - it should still chamber without difficulty because that case expanded less than the others therefore the sized case headspace should be fairly close to the others once they are sized.

Also, FL resizes the radial dimension of the case also which greatly aids in chambering.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I've been using Imperial for many years now. It works terrific if you apply it properly meaning don't over do it. A can will last you many years. It's highly economical.

Here's the way I apply it*. I lightly swirl my trigger finger and the next finger around in the tin to obtain a light coating on the fingers. I then rub them against the thumb to provide a uniform coating on thumb and fingers. I then take a case, and apply it to the body of the case avoiding the shoulder area by working the circumference with my thumb and fingers. Then I stand the case in a lube rack (Sinclair) and proceed to the next case. The lube rack prevents the case from picking up any debris.

Yes, it takes a little longer than a pad but you obtain, my opinion, a much more uniform coating and the optitmum amount of lube because you can feel the amount of lube on the case. Cases size easily - never had a stuck case with Imperial or shoulder dents using this method. Also, you don't pick up debris from a lube pad that is sometimes present after long term use of the pad.

*Credit Frank Shuster for teaching me this method and it works terrific.

My method I developed on my own is very much like this. I'll have a light coating of Imperial lube on my thumb and two finger of my left hand (I'm a righty) and rub the lube onto the case body (much like you've described) as I operate the press with my right hand on the previous lubed case and with the dwell time of ~4 seconds to get consistent sizing, it gives me plenty of time to get the next case lubed and ready. Since it's important to have that dwell time, there's really no extra time involved with lubing my cases this way.

 

[Wolfdog91]

First off thank you all for all the help! I swear y'all are like college professors on this stuff lol, so took a random piece of lake city I had . Lubed it with imperial like y'all suggested didn't adjust my dies at all ,eveything was still tight like the last pic and I sent it though and this is what I got
And that's with my press arm and down as ai could get it and giving it a few seconds on the up stroke
Well I did the little 180 turn deal and it went all the way . So figured I'd clean my die ,mabye there was some crud in it and I found this little BB or Burr just sticking out the side of the inside of the die. I tried pecking at it with a pick and it's there solid , reckon this is the problem?

 

[Wolfdog91]

If the FL die is set up to provide some cam over so that the die is at least touching the shoulder, you will avoid extruding the case causing it to length which needs to be avoided.

By screwing the die down, a little at a time, about 1/8 turn or so, you can increase the cam over and start pushing the shoulder back. The degree of screw down will vary depending on how much play is in the linkages of your press, the hardness of the case, type of cases, rifle fired in, etc.

As mentioned by others, a pause at the top end of the sizing stroke will tend to produce more uniform sizing. In other words, take you time, and develop a uniform stroke. The type of lube and application can also affect the uniformity of sizing.

Fired case head space has to be measured with the primer either removed or seat below the surface of rim to avoid a false reading. You should measure several cases to obtain the fired case head space dimension range. I suspect that not all of them will be exactly 1.458 especially using average quality cases and firing in a semi-auto. Some variation is likely even probable. In other words, don't assume all of them have the same fired headspace dimension.

Obtaining uniform measurements is also subject to operator error using the caliper. To obtain repeatable measurements, you need to develop a consistent technique of measuring the case. I lightly rotate the case to seat it in the caliper. You also need to apply uniform pressure to the jaws of the caliper to obtain repeatable measurement. You can check your technique by re measuring and see if you get the same measurement.

By adjusting the FL die to push back the shoulder about .003 (for semi autos) for the case with the largest head space dimension in that lot, you should be good for the rest of the cases. That will mean that fire cases with headspace less than the maximum you measured won't be pushed back .003" but that shouldn't matter - it should still chamber without difficulty because that case expanded less than the others therefore the sized case headspace should be fairly close to the others once they are sized.

Also, FL resizes the radial dimension of the case also which greatly aids in chambering.

You right they where ranging a litt more or less but most of the ones from this batch of 50 where averaging 1.458 I'd say probably 85% but didnt write it down so can't be 100% just what I saw the most of.
As far as my caliper usage I'm using the Hornady gauge with the anvil. I close them with a lil extra pressure zero them out, do it twice . Make sure theirs no crud in my comparator put my case in and try and spin it a full 360 and if the numbers change I hold it there for a few seconds to see if it will change again. Seemed pretty repeatable.

 

[Wolfdog91]

Which measuring tool are you using to measure your bump?

What length were they before you fired them, how much did they grow?

With a Stoney Point comparator (the same as the Hornady), all factory ammo I have ever measured started at 1.454", and most were 1.455-1.456". I've even had some that were 1.456"-1.458", they still chambered and fired.

My bushing and yours may not be exactly the same, I'm just not convinced yet that you have a problem.

If you made a dummy round with the brass you have sized, will it chamber? Why is it a requirement that you absolutely must bump the shoulder back .004"?

Yes ,anything under 1.455 seems to chamber but I wanted to give it a little extra. I've read how .003 is more of a tighter tolerance thing where as 0.005 and more is more of a reliability deal. Decided .004 seemed like a happy medium.Honestly I'm just really trying to practice making ammo as good as possible well at least as good as I can make it with what I got lol .

 

[williepete]

This might help out some
I load only 5.56 ammo for my ar and I am set up for that
this is what I do.
Redding makes a competition shellholder set and it lets you bump in 2k increments
I set up the press with the shell holder amount that I want to bump
then I screw the fl resizing die down till I get a good cam over to take out any
slop in the press, then lock it down,resize the case and use a rcbs case mike to see what bump I get,
If it is too much or not enought I just change the shellholder until I get the bump that I want
this gives consentient bumps and works great every time
just a thought and what works for me

 

[fatelvis]

Emory cloth on a flat surface will work but be easy and monitor what you are removing.

Hold the face of the shellholder on the flat area of the side of a bench grinder wheel. It’s fast and easy. Just beware of how hot it gets! Lol

 

[Gary C]

I saw a You Tube saying that the brass snould be left in the die at the desired position for a minimum of three-four seconds to minimize ( spring back ) .
This may help.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I saw a You Tube saying that the brass snould be left in the die at the desired position for a minimum of three-four seconds to minimize ( spring back ) .
This may help.

The above is 100% correct when dealing with range pickup brass fired in a multitude of different chambers. After sizing the brass wants to "spring back" to its fired size and pausing during sizing reduces the spring back.

Chambers can vary in size along with sizing dies, this is where a good case gauge is needed to measure case diameter and headspace.

Below are two gauges with the same "fired case" in the gauge. The blue JP Enterprise gauge is smaller in diameter. If the reloaded case drops into the JP Enterprise gauge it will fit in any chamber.

 

[Metal God]

eveything was still tight like the last pic and I sent it though and this is what I got

Your problem is that gap now present between the die and shell holder . It may not look huge but that is . If you can CLEARLY see the brass through the gap between the die and shell holder . You have not sized your case to the full potential of your equipment .

I'm trying not to write WITH ALL CAPITALS !!!! cus this gets me so frustrated . Every time one of these threads comes up the first and most reply's are start grinding on something . no NO ! The first thing you do is make sure you are actually sizing the case to the full extent your equipment will allow . To know this your die and shell holder must make firm contact at the top of the stroke , NO GAP . Think about it , what would grinding do if the two surfaces don't even make contact ? Only then will you know if customizing any of your equipment will be needed .

It seems a lot of reloaders don't know when you put a load on a press like when you are sizing a case . That takes a lot of force . That force is transferred through out the press causing press flex/ deflection in the press and linkage of the ram .

Here is an example of that very thing happening . This is the die and shell holder making light contact at the top of the stroke with no case in the die . Note there is no gap between the die and shell holder .

Here is that same die and shell holder at the same adjustment however this time the press now is sizing a case and has a full load being exerted upon it . Note the gap that has appeard between the die and shell holder just like the OP's pic shows he is getting .

Screwing the die down a bit more should allow you to size the case a few thousandths more or at least the same amount that gap is . My suggestion is using a set of Redding competition shell holders . They are fantastic at solving the press flex/deflection issue . When properly used you can get incredibly consistently head to datum sizing .

 

[drop_point]

Had a feeling I should have stuck with my lube pad And yes I'm pretty sure. Ram all the way up screw your die down it it touches your shell holder. But it's still set up and I'll take a picture and post it when I get home, mabye I'm missing something and honestly I'm not sure about cam over I don't think I do . And yes the measurements are my shoulder bumps. Think they came out my rifle at 1.458 and I'm trying to get them to 1.458 for 4 thou of bump.

Don't listen to them. It has NOTHING to do with ONE SHOT lube. I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds with it.

Questions:

Are you annealing?

How much dwell time are you allowing at the top of the stroke?

It mostly seems to be a die adjustment problem if anything.

 

[K22]

You right they where ranging a litt more or less but most of the ones from this batch of 50 where averaging 1.458 I'd say probably 85% but didnt write it down so can't be 100% just what I saw the most of.
As far as my caliper usage I'm using the Hornady gauge with the anvil. I close them with a lil extra pressure zero them out, do it twice . Make sure theirs no crud in my comparator put my case in and try and spin it a full 360 and if the numbers change I hold it there for a few seconds to see if it will change again. Seemed pretty repeatable.

1. Be careful with the anvil - a friend of mine was having inconsistent measurements and I traced to the anvil. It wasn't flush with the jaw of the caliper, it wasn't machined with a uniform slot so every time he restalled it he got different results.

2. If you using a Hornady bump gauge, put match marks on the holder and insert to you align them the same way every time. One of the reason I like the Whidden bump gauge is that it is caliper group specific and only one piece thus eliminating interfaces.

 

[K22]

Don't listen to them. It has NOTHING to do with ONE SHOT lube. I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds with it.

Questions:

Are you annealing?

How much dwell time are you allowing at the top of the stroke?

It mostly seems to be a die adjustment problem if anything.

I used One Shot for years and never had a stuck case or dented one. The only reason I switched to Imperial was it was a hell of a lot cheaper. I get literally thousands of sizings out of one tin of Imperial. I was always running out of One Shot plus some cans stop dispensing with a lot of One Shot remaining in the can.

If money is no objective, then, yes One Shot does work if applied properly. It's also conveinent and quick, and easy to use. A lube rack (Sinclair) aids in obtaining a uniform distribution of spray lube.

 

[Metal God]

If money is no objective, then, yes One Shot does work if applied properly. It's also conveinent and quick, and easy to use. A lube rack (Sinclair) aids in obtaining a uniform distribution of spray lube.

Yep and although I never stuck a case with oneshot there were a few times I was about to and I stopped and lowered the ram . I went to the home made stuff for the cost mostly . I don't have the exact numbers but I think $75-ish in materials and I have enough lube to do hundreds of thousands of cases . I also don't have to worry about supply chains , instock issues , shipping etc . Have all I need likely for the rest of my life sitting on a shelf in the basement . . How's that go ? using a good product is great , never needing to buy lube again -priceless ;-)

 

[Iowa Fox]

50/50 anhydrous lanolin and vaseline double boiler melted will give you some good slippery lube. An old case former that is now crossed to the other side gave me that one. An old imperial tin of the stuff is all you need.

 

[K22]

Yep and although I never stuck a case with oneshot there were a few times I was about to and I stopped and lowered the ram . I went to the home made stuff for the cost mostly . I don't have the exact numbers but I think $75-ish in materials and I have enough lube to do hundreds of thousands of cases . I also don't have to worry about supply chains , instock issues , shipping etc . Have all I need likely for the rest of my life sitting on a shelf in the basement . . How's that go ? using a good product is great , never needing to buy lube again -priceless ;-)

Amen

 

[divingin]

Your problem is that gap now present between the die and shell holder . It may not look huge but that is . If you can CLEARLY see the brass through the gap between the die and shell holder . You have not sized your case to the full potential of your equipment .

The first thing you do is make sure you are actually sizing the case to the full extent your equipment will allow . To know this your die and shell holder must make firm contact at the top of the stroke , NO GAP

Only then will you know if customizing any of your equipment will be needed .

While I agree with with your logic, I think your explanation could use some clarification:

Most commercial dies are capable of sizing more than you need, and your process description (no gap at full insertion) will show you how much it is capable of sizing, but you do not want to run there, unless you really like changing out brass.

Things to watch for:
1) know that your press will flex when sizing (important, as that means you can't tell what is going to happen without seeing how it performs without running a piece of fired brass into it.) Inconsistent lube practices will mean the flex is different for each piece of brass, which will screw with your results.

2) Typical sizing cycle does 2 things that affect bump: Squeezes the case body, which lengthens the base to shoulder, and then pushes the shoulder back at the top of the stroke. Correct sizing is a balancing act of those 2, assuming you get the problem in 1) figured out. The shoulder push also lengthens the case OAL, which may require trimming - something else to watch for.

3) Insufficient lube inside the neck may cause enough drag as the expander ball comes back up through the neck on the ram down stroke to change the sizing in 2) above.

Probably a bunch more, but these are, IMO, the biggest pitfalls.

 

[JFrank]

Would not the perfect die be .125 shorter than the chamber?
Several dies are purposely cut short and while most people strive for full contact, I prefer to measure my way towards setting the desired headspace and if that ends up with a .004 gap then so be it.
Press deflection ? if I can bend or flex a press by sizing a simple piece of brass I either have unnecessary contact creating pressure stressing the linkage or a really weak press that should taken out of my program.

 

[Metal God]

Most commercial dies are capable of sizing more than you need, and your process description (no gap at full insertion) will show you how much it is capable of sizing, but you do not want to run there, unless you really like changing out brass.

No there was no clarification needed because it was not a general fix . It went to the OP not sizing his case enough to chamber and the fix is to keep screwing the die down until it chambers or you're making hard contact between the die and shell holder . Only then can you conclude if manipulating the die or shell holder is needed .

Would not the perfect die be .125 shorter than the chamber?

What chamber ? Chambers are generally cut to SAAMI spec which has tolerances so there is no x short of y . There is x is with in the tolerances of y . Maybe a custom cut die but commercial dies not so much .

I don't have the data from my test in front of me but... My 308 Redding standard FL sizing die used with a Redding shell holder sized my cases .010 shorter then my fire formed cases when die and shell holder made firm contact . I don't remember but want to say it sized cases .006/.007 shorter then a GO gauge . Maybe I'll go run that test again just to be sure but I do know the standard die and shell holder sized cases way shorter then need be . To the point of case head separation on the 3rd reload