Shoulder bump problem

[Doug Beach]

You run a loaded round into a die, every time you seat a bullet. Sometimes you even compress the powder (gasp).

 

[Iowa Fox]

22 bullets pull pretty easy. I'd just batch them in groups of 50 and play it safe. Just something about the bullet puller that improves the memory down the road.

 

[coldboreshot]

I would like to know the exact mechanism that would fire the primer?

That would be the anvil within the primer. I have heard of an incident across the pond where the (surviving) subject used a small base die and the out-of-spec die compressed too much of the case head and ignited the primer. Now, I could not tell you if this truth or lie, but would you want to be the one who finds out???? Certainly not me.

 

[divingin]

Problem is the neck. Unless you're using a necksize/bump die with with the bushing removed, you'll be sizing the neck of the case with the bullet in it, which will essentially swage the bullet down to sub-caliber diameter where it's in the case neck. Not ideal for accuracy.

I personally (key word there) feel there's very very little risk of setting the primer or powder charge off by running a loaded case into a sizing die.

That said, I also felt there was little chance of primer detonation from using an impact bullet puller, but I've heard of it happening twice now (once to someone I know.)

 

[Mad_Charlie]

There are mechanisms involved using the inertia puller that can set off a primer. I would still like to know the mechanism that can set off a primed case being sized in a sizing die.Especially since the die doesn't size the case head in the primer area. If it did I don't think any of us would be having trouble with loose primer pockets. Forget about the case being charged with powder and bullet for the moment. What sets off the primer? and if a bushing type die without a bushing IS used on a fully loaded cartridge, to bump the shoulder back a couple thou, and the primer doesn't fire, what fires the powder?

 

[Uncle Ed]

Use a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge for the correct amount of shoulder bump. Checking your fired case length and the resized case length for the correct amount of bump.

Below a fired case in my Hornady gauge, then the die is setup for .003 shoulder bump for my AR15. Actually I use Redding competition shell holders to set the shoulder bump.

Then I use a JP Enterprise case gauge below to check case body diameter, as a final plop test.

The JP Enterprise gauges are closer to minimum SAAMI case diameter. And if the Loaded round passes a plop test in this case gauge it will fit in any AR15 chamber. I'm loading for two of my AR15 rifles and also for my sons AR15 rifle. A Dad isn't going to be blamed for a failure to feed/chamber or eject in my sons rifle.

Below the Wilson and Dillon case gauges are a larger inside diameter than the JP Enterprise gauge. The cases were turned 180 and placed base first to show how much smaller in diameter the JP Enterprise gauge is.

Below a fired Lake City 7.62 case in the Dillon .308 case gauge on the left.

Below the same case in the JP Enterprise case gauge.

Bottom line, use the Hornady gauge and JP Enterprise gauges and your cases will chamber and eject in any semi-auto rifle.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Great procedure! but what about the problem?

 

[JFrank]

Thanks so much for the replies everyone. I tried these in my bolt action and they will chamber fine, some have slight resistance but nothing that shouldn't work. I will just use them in my bolt action.

I did discover the reason this happened was because I wasn't setting up my die properly. At the time I put these rounds together, I adjusted the die to where it left a small amount of daylight between the base of the die and the shell holder. Well, it turned out that it worked for some of them but not for all of them. Now that I've seated the die completely down against the shell holder with a slight cam over everything chambers perfectly.

I also took measurements with a headspace gauge so that I have some actual measurements to go off of next time. Thanks again for the help.

Good to see you got things figured out.

 

[Enosiophobia]

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Bugs can't explain the mechanism of firing a primer in a sizing die, we aren't trying to hit it with a hammer!

 

[Uncle Ed]

Great procedure! but what about the problem?

Put the cartridge in a snug fitting knot hole in a fence and hit the primer with a hammer and nail.

Or do what the majority of us do and use a inertia bullet puller and then remove the primer and size the case again.

 

[Lucky Shooter]

Mad Charlie-----firing mechanism

I'm one of the posters who discouraged bumping the shoulders of loaded rounds.

I still think that the odds of no problems would be greatly in your favor and don't
suspect any particular mechanism for igniting the primer.

However, the magnitude of having the X-factor light off the round might far outweigh
the inconvenience of finding another way around your problem.

Take your pick and roll with it.

A. Weldy

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Uncle ED:
I don't see how striking the primer with a hammer and nail is going to solve bumping a shoulder back a few thou, and inertia pullers HAVE had issues, usually coming from incorrect use, as in using a shellholder instead of a three piece collet, or a high primer in a loose pocket. Do you have nails in your loading press?

Lucky Shooter:
The odds would seem to be even less than accidentally dropping a loaded cartridge on a wooden floor from three feet high. There is no impact associated with the resizing process and nothing to apply a sharp blow to the primer. I think that while you don't know if anything can go wrong or not, you don't want to see anyone hurt by some extremely unlikely chance. Nothing wrong with that.

I was trying to do some serious research here, and hopefully get scientifically considered answers. Getting Bugs Bunny cartoons and sarcastic "Stick it in a knothole in a fence and hit it with a hammer and nail" , or "you'll shoot yer eye out kid" type of responses, is less than useful information. It seems that I was foolish to anticipate well reasoned and informative responses here on Accurate Shooter, other than a few from members that didn't see any more danger than seating a bullet,so to speak.

From the complete lack of any reasoned proof here that it is dangerous, I would have to conclude that it is not dangerous, though not particularly desirable. I do not really consider "Heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend, who heard it from another" to be reasoned and scientific.

You folks have a good one.

 

[Scott_B]

One could do some serious research and resize 10000 rounds of you favorite loaded cartridges. This would prove or disprove the theories and cartons shown here. One could then report the finding here.
As a combat arms retiree, I have seen quite a few 'accidents' that happened that one thought should not happen on most days.
I will remain on the sidelines and wait for those attempting to be a Darwin Awardees show me the results.

 

[Doug Beach]

For those that think there is a danger, can you elaborate on the difference between that which you see as dangerous, and seating a bullet? Both procedures enclose a loaded round in a die, and then apply pressure / reduction to the powder space.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Not to mention that Lee sells a die to resize loaded pistol ammo, but that is pistol ammo, but the top is not open.

If a bushing type size die without the bushing or top is used for loaded bottleneck cartridges, there is literally nothing to fire the cartridge, actually seating a bullet might be more dangerous because the entire cartridge is enclosed, not just the body.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

 

[hboothe]

I have about 200 rounds of loaded .223 Rem ammo that i later discovered i didnt set the shoulder back far enough for my AR-15. Some will chamber but some will stick and not completely chamber. Im guessing they need about another .002 or .003" bump.

I have a Redding body die. Is there any foreseeable problem with bumping the shoulder back on this already loaded ammo? I know its probably not advised for safety concerns but will it introduce any problems in the accuracy or pressure department?

This is not ammo loaded for a match, just stuff i shoot towards feral hogs.

Opinions are like anus's; everybody's got one and it usually stinks. This is just my similar experience. I had about 50 cartridges I loaded for 224V w 88gr Hdy ELD-M for feral hogs and I was having problems with them chambering. What was happening was they wouldn't allow the bolt (AR-15) to go fully into battery and required the charging handle to be beaten back to dislodge the cartridge from the chamber. I laid them aside and went on with other ammo. Finally, one night, I tackled the problem. I pulled a few bullets, dumped powder, and ran the full-size neck bushing die over them and they were a little tight. Hmm, a bit undersized. I re-assembled the few cartridges and they chambered fine. I have both an "inertia puller" and a Hornady collet bullet grabber, but the inertia puller takes a heckuva whack (several, actually) to pull those light and tight bullets out and I've ruined projectiles grabbing them too tightly with the collet style. I figured what had happened is that, in a brand new press, I had short-set the resizing die and not bottomed out (cammed over) the sizing die. DOH! They were close, and all were trimmed to minimum length and tidied up, but not close enough for a tight chamber in this rifle. I didn't think anything of it (other than I didn't want to disassemble about 50 cartridges just to resize the body), pulled the decap pin and neck die, and lubed and re-sized them all "right quick". Then I cycled every stinking one through the rifle just to be sure since I've been in the field when one of them jammed my rifle. I'm still here and typing with all my digits.

I'm not advocating anything. Your mileage may vary. And lots of people have stories how their uncles mother's former hairdresser's dog groomer was in a wreck and if that person had been wearing their seatbelt, they'd be dead; and that's why they don't wear their seatbelt. They can eat pavement, I wear my seatbelt. In this case, I don't see a problem with body/shoulder resizing loaded rounds, at least if they were already pretty close to where they were supposed to be (re-sized but not quite fully). Just food for thought.

FWIW.

--HC

 

[C.E.Smith043]

Opinions are like anus's; everybody's got one and it usually stinks. This is just my similar experience. I had about 50 cartridges I loaded for 224V w 88gr Hdy ELD-M for feral hogs and I was having problems with them chambering. What was happening was they wouldn't allow the bolt (AR-15) to go fully into battery and required the charging handle to be beaten back to dislodge the cartridge from the chamber. I laid them aside and went on with other ammo. Finally, one night, I tackled the problem. I pulled a few bullets, dumped powder, and ran the full-size neck bushing die over them and they were a little tight. Hmm, a bit undersized. I re-assembled the few cartridges and they chambered fine. I have both an "inertia puller" and a Hornady collet bullet grabber, but the inertia puller takes a heckuva whack (several, actually) to pull those light and tight bullets out and I've ruined projectiles grabbing them too tightly with the collet style. I figured what had happened is that, in a brand new press, I had short-set the resizing die and not bottomed out (cammed over) the sizing die. DOH! They were close, and all were trimmed to minimum length and tidied up, but not close enough for a tight chamber in this rifle. I didn't think anything of it (other than I didn't want to disassemble about 50 cartridges just to resize the body), pulled the decap pin and neck die, and lubed and re-sized them all "right quick". Then I cycled every stinking one through the rifle just to be sure since I've been in the field when one of them jammed my rifle. I'm still here and typing with all my digits.

I'm not advocating anything. Your mileage may vary. And lots of people have stories how their uncles mother's former hairdresser's dog groomer was in a wreck and if that person had been wearing their seatbelt, they'd be dead; and that's why they don't wear their seatbelt. They can eat pavement, I wear my seatbelt. In this case, I don't see a problem with body/shoulder resizing loaded rounds, at least if they were already pretty close to where they were supposed to be (re-sized but not quite fully). Just food for thought.

FWIW.

--HC

The problem u described with the ar bolt not closing all the way is the exact problem i was having. Now that ive cammed over on the die my problems are gone.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Thank you Mr. Boothe.
For my final post on this topic I would like to relate my own experience.
A few years back, I lucked on to a person who had 1000 rounds of PPU .308 Winchester Match 168gr HPBT for sale at a price that I couldn't walk away from during the "shortage". These were in boxes of 20. I thought that they would make good practice ammo for my 700, and I would have 1K cases to load for more practice ammo. My surprise was great when I learned that I could not chamber a round without much more effort than I cared to deal with. The measuring tools came out and I went to work. Cartridges, taken at random out of each box all measured .003-.0045 to long for my chamber. It is said that tight headspace is good, but this was too much of a good thing. What to do? I had never before considered trying to resize a loaded cartridge esp. with a regular die, it would be impossible. Sometime before this I had gotten on board the bushing die wagon and had a Redding FL bushing die in .308 Win. I started to wonder if the stripped die could bump the shoulders back enough to chamber. I carefully considered this on and off for a few days as I went about my usual business and later in the evening one day I set it up and ran a lightly lubed cartridge up into the die without applying any pressure. I couldn't see ANY reason that it might fire from any normal causes, So I cleared my bench and armored up with my heavy jacket, full face motorcycle helmet. and gloves. With great trepidation, and ducking down as far as I could operate the press, I went for it. Talk about anticlimactic, no strain, no pain, no bang, so I did a few more, same results. The die was already set up for my chamber and I didn't have to change anything. I went into production mode, took off all of my "armor" except for eye protection, and did every last one of them with ZERO problem. They chambered fine, bullets weren't loose. How they shot left a little to be desired, but I absolutely do not know if it was because I bumped the shoulders, or it was less than desirable ammo to begin with.

I have always since then kind of wondered if I just got lucky a thousand times in a row, or did I miss something that MAY have caused a problem. Which is why I was asking my question. Since I have not seen any reasonable explanation, even from some of the most highly respected and knowledgeable folks here as to how the round could fire, I believe it was completely safe under my circumstances. Your Mileage May Vary.

I could have sold the ammo, and most likely gotten an excellent price for it, during the "shortage" but I'm not real big on selling problems to someone else, and I durn sure didn't want to break it all down. It was more than enough work as it was. At least I didn't have to resize it with my bolt.

In this state, I don't have to wear a helmet when I ride, but I do, and I have been riding since I was sixteen. I am sixty seven now.

That's all Folks.