Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
Let an R.O. or match director know that you are new to big matches. They will be glad to squad you with someone that can help you do things right.
Should F-class shooters be required to pull targets?
- Thread starter Mozella
- Start date
Let an R.O. or match director know that you are new to big matches. They will be glad to squad you with someone that can help you do things right.
No pit duty at a short range match?
Not a problem we will be happy to work with you and pair you up with someone who will help you. Just don't be afraid to ask. Most likely we will have two people in the pits per target so someone will be with you the entire time in the pits.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
That may be true at some ranges, but not here in The South. In fact, I have found the opposite to be true. When we pull, score and shoot, we are ALL very busy all day. In the Pits, we might have a new shooter near us that we have to help a bit, but we are too busy to really talk. With E-Targets, we at least have one full relay each match, usually times 3, to meet new people and get to know them. Yes, some prefer to only hang out with a few friends. In this area, I have found most shooters to be so inviting that we have time to meet more new friends this way.
I"d like to give my two cents in regard to why I prefer E Targets. Having shot for many years on conventional pull targets and lately on E Targets, I have a great fondness for these new fangled targets. The one and only time I shot the E Target, I was like a kid in a candy store. Loved the experience. As a match director this is the cats meow. Squadding is a breeze. No more waiting for the last participant to show or not show up. Walk-ons appearing from nowhere etc. " Oh listen up we're going to have to re squad". Our matches have HP prone, F Class and AR Tactical. Now, I have more than once had shooters tell me that because of surgery, health, age, etc. that they decline to shoot because of lack of ability to operate carriers. Also been heard, "If I can't pull targets, I'm not going to shoot". These are proud shooters that don't ask for any favors.
How many of you have spent long..... days at Perry for 50 shots? Pit changes go only as fast as the slowest person. These E Targets in my opinion are big plus. Match will run more efficiently, shooters can keep hydrated and fed without being on the run. Those shooters from out of town will get on the road earlier and perhaps get home before dark.
The protocol is in place for shooters with disability. Waivers will be needed by NRA. In my opinion, pullers must be available for all shooters if used. The same advantage must be given to all shooters. Most programs require that "shooters are required to pull targets".
Let's make this a shooting competition not an old school "last man standing". We're here to enjoy, make it as good an experience as possible.
Steve Finnell - MCRC
How many of you have spent long..... days at Perry for 50 shots? Pit changes go only as fast as the slowest person. These E Targets in my opinion are big plus. Match will run more efficiently, shooters can keep hydrated and fed without being on the run. Those shooters from out of town will get on the road earlier and perhaps get home before dark.
The protocol is in place for shooters with disability. Waivers will be needed by NRA. In my opinion, pullers must be available for all shooters if used. The same advantage must be given to all shooters. Most programs require that "shooters are required to pull targets".
Let's make this a shooting competition not an old school "last man standing". We're here to enjoy, make it as good an experience as possible.
Steve Finnell - MCRC
Steve,
Good to see that you are still alive and well. It's been awhile since we have been on the firing line together.
I have read thru the extensive posts on pulling targets. Here is a question that has been buzzing around in my head. When we talk about pulling targets or having e-targets, does it make a difference what level of match we are shooting? Is a club match the same as a regional? A regional the same as a national? is the skill and ability to compete/pull at these three levels the same?
Pulling targets - Most of us "Old Timers" took target pulling for granted as we were shooting service rifles with iron sights and chasing "Leg Points". Pulling targets was part of the game so that everyone not only had to shoot but be able to manage their energy level for the day. The sport was not just about pulling triggers but also being in good physical shape to perform at the high levels necessary to earn our points. You not only had shooting practice, you spent time in the gym to raise your physical ability as well. It would be interesting to know what the average age of F-class shooters is vs phone sling shooters. Just a guess, I would think that there are more Seniors and Grand Seniors in the latter class but I may be wrong.
E-targets - We have been practicing on a SMT target system for several years now. The system indeed makes practice sessions go much quicker. I do question the overall accuracy of the system though. On occasion, with a new target face, we will compare the actual bullet holes in the target with the screen capture. There is a difference. The system is calibrated a couple of times a year to help insure accurate feedback but I would not trust E-target zero's when going to a pulled target match. If our group is headed to a match, we always practice on an actual pulled and marked target so that rifle zero's are confirmed. Why waist a sighting shot during a match when you could be getting important wind info?
While a paid target puller sounds like a great idea, you have to be careful what you wish for. I have paid for target pullers who were not worth their wages. An experienced target puller vs a knob puller is what you are hoping for. Often it doesn't go that way and you are stuck with target service that can easily effect your overall score. That would be a plus for your E-target (consistent service). My preference would be for an experienced target puller who can give me 7-10 sec service. In return, I will do the same for the other shooters on my firing point.
I guess another question is why are you going to the match? Are you just there to have fun and BS with your buddy's (sort of an organized practice session) or compete at the highest levels against the best shooters. The answer to that question will certainly affect how you answer the question of target pulling.
Have fun and hope to see you on the firing line.
Bob Beckett
Bob, good to hear from you. Been a long time since we were shooting those M14/M1A's down range.
Enjoyed reading your post. One thing I've learned over the years is embrace the change as it is going to roll right on past you and leave you in the dust. Remember the " Mouse Gun's" arrival, lately the optics in service rifle?
We've got to adapt or lose our sport. When one goes to the line look around at the age of the participants. Is there any "new blood"? We need to make this sport appealing to new shooters. I believe the E targets will be one thing that keep newer and older shooters coming. As they say, "If you build it, They will come".
Hope to see ya on the line one day. The best to you and your family.
Steve
Here is one more perspective on the issue. As we all know, weather is a huge consideration at a match of any kind. Wind is the weather we all work on learning better. But extreme heat, humidity or cold is also a consideration. If we go to a match where we will be pulling targets, than once the match begins, we are committed to staying all day doing our job of pulling, even if we have a gun failure or weather becomes too much for us to deal with. We can DNF shooting, but if we pack up and leave early, we are then screwing up 2 other competitors. So unless we literally are unable to continue such as heat stroke or injury, we will just have to deal with whatever we all get hit with as far as weather is concerned, all day. Probably 6 to 8 hours. Anything less is both rude and un-sportsman like for the other shooters. With E-Targets, if conditions become too much for us, regardless of the reason, we can stop without harming other shooters. Further, the total time is reduced by a few hours in any case.
As a result of the above, how many shooters look at the probable weather and if we are concerned about poor conditions (not talking about wind) and our ability to handle them for the entire day, simply do not attend some matches for those reasons stated. Not wanting to risk getting caught in heat or cold or rain, beyond our personal limits of tolerance, so not starting in the first place? With E-Targets we will take those chances because we know we can leave early if it gets too much for us. As a needed puller, we have to commit?
Most of us are doing this for our own enjoyment, not because we are paid to do so or because it is a part of our profession. I know that this year, with worse than usual weather in the area, I have missed several matches I would have wished to shoot in just for these reasons.
As a result of the above, how many shooters look at the probable weather and if we are concerned about poor conditions (not talking about wind) and our ability to handle them for the entire day, simply do not attend some matches for those reasons stated. Not wanting to risk getting caught in heat or cold or rain, beyond our personal limits of tolerance, so not starting in the first place? With E-Targets we will take those chances because we know we can leave early if it gets too much for us. As a needed puller, we have to commit?
Most of us are doing this for our own enjoyment, not because we are paid to do so or because it is a part of our profession. I know that this year, with worse than usual weather in the area, I have missed several matches I would have wished to shoot in just for these reasons.
M99, your spot on with range conditions.
As a match director, I have seen all of the above. I've had medical and police professionals get the call and excuse themselves during the match. Every now and then heat related disability. what a quagmire that becomes during the match. I went to the range one day in 100 deg. weather to test temperature sensitivity with my ammo. Using a digital temp gun the temperature in the grass was 130 deg. This is not fun for a prone shooter especially slinger with sweatshirt and coat.
Long story short, I'm the squeaky wheel at our club. Been pushing, with others, for range development with covered firing line, E Targets and extend our 500yd. range to 600.
Maybe I won't get as many calls before a match to see if it's still on or the "I won't make it'.
"You build it, They'll come".
Steve,
Shot on a SMT target this morning with Dave Smith and Pat McCann. The biggest issue we have (with the E-target) is keeping a center in the target face so that you can practice with a scope gun. That X/10 ring is nothing but a big hole after our group shoots for a month with irons. Nothing to aim at when you switch to a scope gun.
I agree on the adapt to the changes you mentioned. When it comes to conventional targets, it seems that at matches anymore, there are few who have come up thru the ranks of service rifle shooting w/irons and know how to actually pull and score a target. The E-target does even out the effects of "Bad" target service so that is a good thing.
So far, have not given up on holding my rifle in two hands and twisting the knobs on a Warner sight. The challenge is what I truly enjoy and have been blessed with the health and eyes to continue to do it. Just "Old School" and too stubborn to change out all of my gear.
Dave and I get the M14s out once in a while and have off-hand duels. It's still fun.
Take care and hope to shoot with you again.
Bob
Bob, I am not an expert on these E Targets. But, those who use them calibrate the target so the impact is high, oh a minute or two and the tablet will show a center hit. This way the center stays intact. Hope that explains it.
You just keep holding on with two hands and don't forget to breathe.
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It is good to hear a Match Director's perspective. I'd love to see it at our local club as well, but it doesn't seem to move. Several years back I was in the pits pulling on one of those high temp / high humidity days, drinking as much water as I could force down. I knew I was running down and trying to get through the last two relays I was pulling for when a guy near me said: "You don't look good. You better go lay down in the shade at the end of the pit line. We'll figure out how to finish pulling for you." I learned from years in the bush and deserts that when someone else tells you that you don't look good and you better lay down, you better take their advice. Every year, there seem to be fewer shooters in the Summer. Then I shot my first match at a new, really high end range a few hours away. Covered firing line, E-Targets, easy load and unload of equipment. That convinced me. Every match they run has more shooters show up while other ranges lose shooters. Both Sling and F-Class.
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If you're talking Dead Zero, Matt had significant influence on the design of the range. As a former F class shooter, a current top level Prone shooter and a High Master Smack talker, as well as a guy who is poking or just into his 50s he knows what is comfortable and what's a guy check. I think his plan was excellent and that range has a great future.
If, by local range, you mean AEDC I think there is a proposal to make next year's matches on the e-targets. All of them. That may exclude the F Class LR regional and the F Class State Championship but I'm not clear on how this will work yet. I know Tim wants shooters to be able to set records as well as turn in scored for classification. There are some bugs to be worked out BUT I can tell you as someone who has been shooting there since 2001, those e-targets are the solution to the new target carriers. I think more than anything else, those carriers are ruining the turn out.
If, by local range, you mean AEDC I think there is a proposal to make next year's matches on the e-targets. All of them. That may exclude the F Class LR regional and the F Class State Championship but I'm not clear on how this will work yet. I know Tim wants shooters to be able to set records as well as turn in scored for classification. There are some bugs to be worked out BUT I can tell you as someone who has been shooting there since 2001, those e-targets are the solution to the new target carriers. I think more than anything else, those carriers are ruining the turn out.
The simple fix is aim at the centre or where ever you aim but wind the POH to somewhere else on the target. Do your 10 0r what ever then shift POH to somewhere else and go again. You are only shooting for group not score so keep shifting your POH. Another help is to glue a thin sheet of rubber to the back of the coreflute in the heavy hit area, also put a layer of glue on the face of the target after it is fitted to the coreflute.
It is good to see the good points of E Ts starting to get put out there in the USA. Your learning curve is steep keep it up. ETs are accurate if setup correctly and the maintenance is kept up. The use of portable shooting benches is keeping old shooters on the mound and allows disabled people on the mound who don't have access to many sports at all. ETs have many plusses.
Nope. I was not talking about AEDC and I do shoot there as well. Tim and John do a tremendous job of doing the best they can with what they have available, and I very much appreciate the fact that the National Guard does allow us to use their range! They don't have to. However, on expected bad weather days, I have skipped matches there as well. They have mentioned that they will now be using E-Targets for most of their matches, and that will be a huge improvement. If any criticism of ANY match directors was deduced from anything I said, I apologize. They are the reason we have a shooting sport.
I didn't read it as criticism. I just wanted to start priming AEDC shooters that this is coming. We need to buy a few more targets to make this seamless but we're getting close. Four more targets should do it and AEDC has plenty of firing points to put separation between targets and for a spare E-target of two to be up and running just in case one goes down.
I shot a 3x600 last week at Henry Co on SMTs. We started at 9am and I was on the road after we cleaned the pits and our the targets away, by 11:30 AM. SO nice.
I shot a 3x600 last week at Henry Co on SMTs. We started at 9am and I was on the road after we cleaned the pits and our the targets away, by 11:30 AM. SO nice.
Liked your post Danny. I really enjoy training with my shotmarker because i dont need a puller, But...when competing i always preferred to pull targets for a coupleof reasons. 1) i liked the time in the pits as the social event of the match. Could catch up with shooters i had not seen in a while, eat, etc. and 2) with live targets left and right of me when iam on the line i can pause when a wind change occurs and just watch everybody’s target come up with spotters out to the right (for example) and i just put on wind and put another one in the middle... big smile there
I was resistant to the e targets for both of these reasons. Now, we just BS back by the trucks in the shade. As for watching other people's wind, many of the SW packages used now have the ability to display all the targets across the bottom of the screen.
My biggest negative is the way the system is set up it makes it REALLY easy for us spotter chasers to not even bring the spotting scope up to watch mirage/wind. For those of us (me) who are not disciplined enough to continue to check the scope in our routine this leads to some crazy wild shots due to missed calls...
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