Pattern your shotgun on a pattern board using the ammo you will be shooting.... A good gun club should have a pattern board so take some butcher paper with you for a target.... If you're around La Grange tx on March 23 I will be working at the Fayette county gun club from 1-5 swing by and you can use our old pattern board... Just bring some butcher paper or something for your target...
I'm not real familiar with the rifle world. Just getting into it more. All I was ever interested in was shooting minute of coyote. Lol. Learning a bunch on here. I was wondering about the parallax comment. I always thought the purpose of a red dot sight besides quick target acquisition was to eliminate parallax, or at least to a large degree. Am I thinking wrong on this? Thanks, Jk80.
I would love some help getting my shotguns set up right. They get plenty of clays but i always want to learn more. How exactly do you aim on the target from a bench- use your normal sight picture you see when shooting? Do you line the sights up like it was designed?
I'm not to hung up on how much space I see between the rib. It doesn't matter as long as you see the same space every time you bring the gun up. On my k-80's I see the whole rib. Once I see that I'm set and I never notice the rib or beads except in soft focus. My whole attention is on the target. Aiming a shotgun will almost without exception result in a lost target or lost game bird. After 40 years of pointing instead of aiming iron sights are VERY hard for me to use! Lol. I'm just not used to focusing on the front sight. I just suggest a figure 8 sight picture because it's repeatable and easy to describe. I'm from around the st louis area and if I can help anyone around here I sure will. It only takes around an hour to do and I've got everything needed to do it.
Fit is everything on a shotgun. Your eye is basically the rear sight and it has to be right. I went to Phil Simms in Colorado to get a stock custom fit. He makes a recoil reduction unit called pro soft and it works great! He did an outstanding job fitting the stock and the recoil system is unbelievable. Some days at tournaments I've shot as many as 7to 800 shells counting the program and shoot offs and less recoil really helps. Nowadays with adjustable combs and buttstocks it's fairly easy to get close, but there's nothing like a custom stock for fit.
That is true, but that "same place" is only a few feet in front of the gun! At least, that is what I have found whenever I checked the regulation on an O/U that shot both barrels to the same spot at 30 yards. It is actually quite stunning to see the first time you do it, and it makes you appreciate how hard it is for O/U manufacturers to get it right. I'm sure the first guy to ever solder two barrels together thot if he could just get them looking at the same spot after solder cooled they would work great. Wrong! Those barrels would have shot 3 feet apart! It must have something to do with the recoil. All I know is it must have taken a lot of trial and error to figure out exactly where the two POA's must converge in order to be correct in the field, and then there is the issue of getting the rib to point at the spot where the two barrels pattern. And then the fact that a gun is not going to recoil against a big, solid shoulder the same way it recoils against a lightweight, soft one.
Best advice: buy an O/U with an adjustable comb (or have one installed), or go with one of the semi-auto's that comes with swappable shims between the action and the stock that allow you to change cast and drop, and begin your journey of experimentation and enlightenment. 
Excellent post. Things got a little off the rails in some posts, but I enjoyed them because they were mostly informative. I didn't give all the details in my original post in order to try and maintain focus on the 14" low problem. I don't shoot shotgun much anymore. The problem was posed to me by a friend. I knew you guys on AS could shed light on the matter. The only gun that I personally owned for many years was a bolt action .410 purchased from my uncle at age 11. I got very good with it. It was an instinctive point and shoot game with me. I went hunting with 3 guys with 12 gauges one day and I'm the only one that brought table fare home. I bought a 788 Remington in 243 Win. caliber at around twenty years of age and took up rifle shooting. Years of rifle shooting, or maybe just the years, caused me to be a much poorer shotgun shooter. For me it seems to be two completely different types of shooting. Anyway I have enjoyed all of the input and I will relay it to my friend. Thanks so much!!That is true, but that "same place" is only a few feet in front of the gun! At least, that is what I have found whenever I checked the regulation on an O/U that shot both barrels to the same spot at 30 yards. It is actually quite stunning to see the first time you do it, and it makes you appreciate how hard it is for O/U manufacturers to get it right. I'm sure the first guy to ever solder two barrels together thot if he could just get them looking at the same spot after solder cooled they would work great. Wrong! Those barrels would have shot 3 feet apart! It must have something to do with the recoil. All I know is it must have taken a lot of trial and error to figure out exactly where the two POA's must converge in order to be correct in the field, and then there is the issue of getting the rib to point at the spot where the two barrels pattern. And then the fact that a gun is not going to recoil against a big, solid shoulder the same way it recoils against a lightweight, soft one.
This problem is exactly why K80's and the Rem. 3200 they were modeled after come/came with front hangers that can be changed out, slightly bending the muzzles apart or together to correct any regulation issue. Obviously there is a limit on this, because the barrels are soldered together back at the breech end, but generally a slight correction is all that is needed.
With any other O/U (and I have owned quite a few) my RULE NO. 1 has been, if at all possible test its regulation on the pattern plate (or on clays laid on a berm, something!) before buying. Obviously, not possible to do on a brand new gun. There I recommend avoiding "value" brands/models and sticking with ones known to *usually* be correct. Japanese- (Kodensha-)made Winchesters were *usually* on or very close, as were Miroku-made Brownings. But I seemed to be a little snake-bit with SKB's. A Perazzi with minimal engraving and plain wood is still pretty expensive, and for a very good reason.
RULE NO. 2 is, if you already own the gun and most of your pheasants are coming down dead, don't ever take that gun anywhere near a pattern-plate.
What jk80 says is spot on, but for shooting flying targets only. Turkey hunters use "turkey" (X-Full or tighter) chokes and then slowly and carefully aim at the bird's head.
An O/U with a Red-Dot on it should still print both barrels to the same spot, or be no more than an inch or two off. Certainly not 14. That is not going to be fixed by removing the Red-Dot.
Yes, you can frequently change the POI by using a different (screw-in) choke and/or load, but you are not going to correct a 14" disparity. Maybe 6".
RULE NO. 3: Except for turkey hunting, do not assume that where a shotgun (any shotgun) prints on the pattern-board ("high," "low," "left," etc.) is where it is going to be when you are shooting flying. I have fitted many guns to many shooters over the years and I learned long ago to go by where they are shooting flying, not by where they shoot on the pattern-board, because they will not be the same place. Shooting the way jk80 said, get someone who has enough shotgun coaching experience (and it usually takes a TON) that they can see where you are missing when you shoot flying. When they tell you you are consistently high, low, left, etc., and by how much, then adjust your stock accordingly.
And, yes, it is tricky to know how much to change the stock to correct for your being "X-inches low at 20 yards." A very good gun-fitter will be able to tell you, but those are pretty rare. In fact, after being one for several years I finally concluded they do not exist!
Yes, jk80, a "custom stock" can be wonderful. But I have also seen very highly regarded fitters get it very, very wrong, so the customer came home with a beautiful, expensive gun with a beautiful, expensive piece of newly carved wood on it . . . that did not fit him.
No problem if you are rich -- you just sell it and start all over again.
Then there is the problem of our gun-fit changing as age, gain or lose weight, or simply gain experience shooting. Being able to easily change it any time you want is hard to argue with.
They are about as similar as swimming and diving.
It's a wonderful thing when a person with this much knowledge will share this much information. I'm a shotgun guy and I learned a lot.That is true, but that "same place" is only a few feet in front of the gun! At least, that is what I have found whenever I checked the regulation on an O/U that shot both barrels to the same spot at 30 yards. It is actually quite stunning to see the first time you do it, and it makes you appreciate how hard it is for O/U manufacturers to get it right. I'm sure the first guy to ever solder two barrels together thot if he could just get them looking at the same spot after solder cooled they would work great. Wrong! Those barrels would have shot 3 feet apart! It must have something to do with the recoil. All I know is it must have taken a lot of trial and error to figure out exactly where the two POA's must converge in order to be correct in the field, and then there is the issue of getting the rib to point at the spot where the two barrels pattern. And then the fact that a gun is not going to recoil against a big, solid shoulder the same way it recoils against a lightweight, soft one.
This problem is exactly why K80's and the Rem. 3200 they were modeled after come/came with front hangers that can be changed out, slightly bending the muzzles apart or together to correct any regulation issue. Obviously there is a limit on this, because the barrels are soldered together back at the breech end, but generally a slight correction is all that is needed.
With any other O/U (and I have owned quite a few) my RULE NO. 1 has been, if at all possible test its regulation on the pattern plate (or on clays laid on a berm, something!) before buying. Obviously, not possible to do on a brand new gun. There I recommend avoiding "value" brands/models and sticking with ones known to *usually* be correct. Japanese- (Kodensha-)made Winchesters were *usually* on or very close, as were Miroku-made Brownings. But I seemed to be a little snake-bit with SKB's. A Perazzi with minimal engraving and plain wood is still pretty expensive, and for a very good reason.
RULE NO. 2 is, if you already own the gun and most of your pheasants are coming down dead, don't ever take that gun anywhere near a pattern-plate.
What jk80 says is spot on, but for shooting flying targets only. Turkey hunters use "turkey" (X-Full or tighter) chokes and then slowly and carefully aim at the bird's head.
An O/U with a Red-Dot on it should still print both barrels to the same spot, or be no more than an inch or two off. Certainly not 14. That is not going to be fixed by removing the Red-Dot.
Yes, you can frequently change the POI by using a different (screw-in) choke and/or load, but you are not going to correct a 14" disparity. Maybe 6".
RULE NO. 3: Except for turkey hunting, do not assume that where a shotgun (any shotgun) prints on the pattern-board ("high," "low," "left," etc.) is where it is going to be when you are shooting flying. I have fitted many guns to many shooters over the years and I learned long ago to go by where they are shooting flying, not by where they shoot on the pattern-board, because they will not be the same place. Shooting the way jk80 said, get someone who has enough shotgun coaching experience (and it usually takes a TON) that they can see where you are missing when you shoot flying. When they tell you you are consistently high, low, left, etc., and by how much, then adjust your stock accordingly.
And, yes, it is tricky to know how much to change the stock to correct for your being "X-inches low at 20 yards." A very good gun-fitter will be able to tell you, but those are pretty rare. In fact, after being one for several years I finally concluded they do not exist!
Yes, jk80, a "custom stock" can be wonderful. But I have also seen very highly regarded fitters get it very, very wrong, so the customer came home with a beautiful, expensive gun with a beautiful, expensive piece of newly carved wood on it . . . that did not fit him.
No problem if you are rich -- you just sell it and start all over again.
Then there is the problem of our gun-fit changing as you age, gain or lose weight, or simply gain experience shooting. Being able to easily change it any time you want is hard to argue with.
This has some good. Info... I especially like rule 2... I have never pattered my Beretta 690 I shoot skeet with... I smash with it right out of the box and refused to get it anywhere near a pattern board...lolThat is true, but that "same place" is only a few feet in front of the gun! At least, that is what I have found whenever I checked the regulation on an O/U that shot both barrels to the same spot at 30 yards. It is actually quite stunning to see the first time you do it, and it makes you appreciate how hard it is for O/U manufacturers to get it right. I'm sure the first guy to ever solder two barrels together thot if he could just get them looking at the same spot after solder cooled they would work great. Wrong! Those barrels would have shot 3 feet apart! It must have something to do with the recoil. All I know is it must have taken a lot of trial and error to figure out exactly where the two POA's must converge in order to be correct in the field, and then there is the issue of getting the rib to point at the spot where the two barrels pattern. And then the fact that a gun is not going to recoil against a big, solid shoulder the same way it recoils against a lightweight, soft one.
This problem is exactly why K80's and the Rem. 3200 they were modeled after come/came with front hangers that can be changed out, slightly bending the muzzles apart or together to correct any regulation issue. Obviously there is a limit on this, because the barrels are soldered together back at the breech end, but generally a slight correction is all that is needed.
With any other O/U (and I have owned quite a few) my RULE NO. 1 has been, if at all possible test its regulation on the pattern plate (or on clays laid on a berm, something!) before buying. Obviously, not possible to do on a brand new gun. There I recommend avoiding "value" brands/models and sticking with ones known to *usually* be correct. Japanese- (Kodensha-)made Winchesters were *usually* on or very close, as were Miroku-made Brownings. But I seemed to be a little snake-bit with SKB's. A Perazzi with minimal engraving and plain wood is still pretty expensive, and for a very good reason.
RULE NO. 2 is, if you already own the gun and most of your pheasants are coming down dead, don't ever take that gun anywhere near a pattern-plate.
What jk80 says is spot on, but for shooting flying targets only. Turkey hunters use "turkey" (X-Full or tighter) chokes and then slowly and carefully aim at the bird's head.
An O/U with a Red-Dot on it should still print both barrels to the same spot, or be no more than an inch or two off. Certainly not 14. That is not going to be fixed by removing the Red-Dot.
Yes, you can frequently change the POI by using a different (screw-in) choke and/or load, but you are not going to correct a 14" disparity. Maybe 6".
RULE NO. 3: Except for turkey hunting, do not assume that where a shotgun (any shotgun) prints on the pattern-board ("high," "low," "left," etc.) is where it is going to be when you are shooting flying. I have fitted many guns to many shooters over the years and I learned long ago to go by where they are shooting flying, not by where they shoot on the pattern-board, because they will not be the same place. Shooting the way jk80 said, get someone who has enough shotgun coaching experience (and it usually takes a TON) that they can see where you are missing when you shoot flying. When they tell you you are consistently high, low, left, etc., and by how much, then adjust your stock accordingly.
And, yes, it is tricky to know how much to change the stock to correct for your being "X-inches low at 20 yards." A very good gun-fitter will be able to tell you, but those are pretty rare. In fact, after being one for several years I finally concluded they do not exist!
Yes, jk80, a "custom stock" can be wonderful. But I have also seen very highly regarded fitters get it very, very wrong, so the customer came home with a beautiful, expensive gun with a beautiful, expensive piece of newly carved wood on it . . . that did not fit him.
No problem if you are rich -- you just sell it and start all over again.
Then there is the problem of our gun-fit changing as you age, gain or lose weight, or simply gain experience shooting. Being able to easily change it any time you want is hard to argue with.
About all a figure 8 will accomplish is a rough estimate of your gun mounting abilities. If the front sight, mid rib, and eye are all aligned, you will get the figure 8.
Good post. I will say though knowing how to adjust to achieve p.o.i. isn't a black art. It works the same as adjusting iron sights, you just have to remember you eye is the rear sight and move it accordingly. If I showed anyone how and why of adjusting a gun I believe they'd understand why. I agree to a point about a custom stock. Not everyone is a gunfitter as opposed to a stock maker. As far as weight loss or gain any stock for shooting, custom or not will benefit from an adjustable comb. As far as rich to have a stock made, shooting a ill fitting stock that's perhaps causing recoil issues and not being to hit anything, it can be priceless. Is it for everyone? No. It can be expensive, but a huge cost is the grade of wood you choose. Anyone in the shotgun sports who have priced a stock blank can tell you they can go from a few hundred dollars to several thousand before the on the stock work starts. I've got them on my tournament guns but shoot factory stocks on my field guns. I used a factory beretta 390 on live birds and did extremely well with it. It worked for what I needed it to do. I sure agree you need to find someone who can tell where you're shooting if you're shooting a flying target. That can be a problem at times because not everyone can tell. Most watch the wad and it tells you nothing! I always suggest a trip to the pattern board before anything else because it will show a problem, whether shooting a static or flying target. To me it just eliminates one variable out of the equation. If you have a different method I'd enjoy learning something. I've been in the shotgun sports for a long time and still take a clinic occasionally with an instructor I trust and check my p.o.i. a few times a year. I always learn something new and love to do so. A guy can't know to much! Thanks, and sorry to be long winded. I love the shooting sports and get carried away sometimes! Jk80.That is true, but that "same place" is only a few feet in front of the gun! At least, that is what I have found whenever I checked the regulation on an O/U that shot both barrels to the same spot at 30 yards. It is actually quite stunning to see the first time you do it, and it makes you appreciate how hard it is for O/U manufacturers to get it right. I'm sure the first guy to ever solder two barrels together thot if he could just get them looking at the same spot after solder cooled they would work great. Wrong! Those barrels would have shot 3 feet apart! It must have something to do with the recoil. All I know is it must have taken a lot of trial and error to figure out exactly where the two POA's must converge in order to be correct in the field, and then there is the issue of getting the rib to point at the spot where the two barrels pattern. And then the fact that a gun is not going to recoil against a big, solid shoulder the same way it recoils against a lightweight, soft one.
This problem is exactly why K80's and the Rem. 3200 they were modeled after come/came with front hangers that can be changed out, slightly bending the muzzles apart or together to correct any regulation issue. Obviously there is a limit on this, because the barrels are soldered together back at the breech end, but generally a slight correction is all that is needed.
With any other O/U (and I have owned quite a few) my RULE NO. 1 has been, if at all possible test its regulation on the pattern plate (or on clays laid on a berm, something!) before buying. Obviously, not possible to do on a brand new gun. There I recommend avoiding "value" brands/models and sticking with ones known to *usually* be correct. Japanese- (Kodensha-)made Winchesters were *usually* on or very close, as were Miroku-made Brownings. But I seemed to be a little snake-bit with SKB's. A Perazzi with minimal engraving and plain wood is still pretty expensive, and for a very good reason.
RULE NO. 2 is, if you already own the gun and most of your pheasants are coming down dead, don't ever take that gun anywhere near a pattern-plate.
What jk80 says is spot on, but for shooting flying targets only. Turkey hunters use "turkey" (X-Full or tighter) chokes and then slowly and carefully aim at the bird's head.
An O/U with a Red-Dot on it should still print both barrels to the same spot, or be no more than an inch or two off. Certainly not 14. That is not going to be fixed by removing the Red-Dot.
Yes, you can frequently change the POI by using a different (screw-in) choke and/or load, but you are not going to correct a 14" disparity. Maybe 6".
RULE NO. 3: Except for turkey hunting, do not assume that where a shotgun (any shotgun) prints on the pattern-board ("high," "low," "left," etc.) is where it is going to be when you are shooting flying. I have fitted many guns to many shooters over the years and I learned long ago to go by where they are shooting flying, not by where they shoot on the pattern-board, because they will not be the same place. Shooting the way jk80 said, get someone who has enough shotgun coaching experience (and it usually takes a TON) that they can see where you are missing when you shoot flying. When they tell you you are consistently high, low, left, etc., and by how much, then adjust your stock accordingly.
And, yes, it is tricky to know how much to change the stock to correct for your being "X-inches low at 20 yards." A very good gun-fitter will be able to tell you, but those are pretty rare. In fact, after being one for several years I finally concluded they do not exist!
Yes, jk80, a "custom stock" can be wonderful. But I have also seen very highly regarded fitters get it very, very wrong, so the customer came home with a beautiful, expensive gun with a beautiful, expensive piece of newly carved wood on it . . . that did not fit him.
No problem if you are rich -- you just sell it and start all over again.
Then there is the problem of our gun-fit changing as you age, gain or lose weight, or simply gain experience shooting. Being able to easily change it any time you want is hard to argue with.
Maybe, if the gun has been regulated or probably not if it hasn’t like a lot of cheaper guns. I was giving a simple answer to question rather than going too far in depth..
You're referring to POA (point of aim). Every gun, whether or not equipped with sights or even aimed, will shoot to point of impact. You missed the humor.
