How about describing your method then so I can understand your reasoning and results?
What you have said so far doesn't help me one bit.
Short range tuning for 1000yd BR?
- Thread starter Curious
- Start date
How about describing your method then so I can understand your reasoning and results?
What you have said so far doesn't help me one bit.
If you come to my neck of the woods you can be my guest at our 550 range anytime!
Great Topic
Best Regards
SPJ
one metho
one way to do it is like the 100+ page thread going on about 100 yard load work up. the other method is to do a ladder test at furthest distance you can first. Then seating. Then take to a match. But at long distance you have to know your skill and equipment.
How about describing your method then so I can understand your reasoning and results?
What you have said so far doesn't help me one bit.
one way to do it is like the 100+ page thread going on about 100 yard load work up. the other method is to do a ladder test at furthest distance you can first. Then seating. Then take to a match. But at long distance you have to know your skill and equipment.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
One easy way to do it would be to get your best agging load at 1k or even 600, not your best group i mean 5-10 groups of at least 5 shots, then shoot another agg at 100 and see what it looks like. 2 or 3 shot groups give no info the way conditions change so often.
I tried this last barrel. It hammered at 600 and 1000. Fclass. Took to 100 yards for first time. 5 shot groups bugholed
it seems like it should bughole at 100 yds to be able to do well way out there.
What are the short range group sizes of all you other long range shooters?????????
What are the short range group sizes of all you other long range shooters?????????
I feel like there is some confusion here that centers around the two basic tuning methods and then the expectations at short range v long rang.
Tuning for positive compensation (PC) is very specific, the science shows us that the only time the bullets (which travel at various speeds of often quite large ES) will all converge at the same vertical point (or very close to) is at the tuned distance, whatever that may be. Imagine a series of ballistic curves, the slower bullets have slightly more in terms of trajectory as they leave the barrel later on its harmonic rise than the faster ones but because of these different bullet release/exit points at different trajectories they converge somewhere they are meant to at a specific tuned distance, usually long range.
If we plotted these curves they would all rise above the line of sight then drop back over it again at our zero/tuned distance, at all other times the bullets are on varying trajectories/flight paths so if they land on any other target at any other distance the groups wont be optimised, the further before or after the zero/tuned range the more vertical difference there will be. As such I would never expect a PC tuned 1000yd rifle to shoot small at 100yds, when I say small I mean aggs in the low .2s or less, it just can't happen, I would also expect to see vertical dispersion in the group but exactly how much I dont know, it might show up better at say 300yds. If a rifle dis shoot small at all ranges up to the tuned distance then PC couldn't be happening.
I think we are past the stage of debating if PC exists or works, there are enough guys proving it time and again and having also proven it at less than my required 1000yds I have no doubt it works, sadly its very distance specific
The other method of tuning (which this thread was aimed at) is one of shooting small groups at 100yds then taking them out to 200 and 300yd and again looking for small groups in the sub 0.25MOA range. From there we would be hoping/expecting that the groups also held together at 600yds and then 1000yds and would continue tuning to optimise within the realms of what our MV extreme spreads will allow. If a rifle has been tuned this way and shoots really well at 600yds there is more than an expectation it would also shoot well at 100, 300 and 1000 and what holds the load back would be our ES in terms of vertical dispersion.
The guys who are tuning for PC and can hold in the 1s for vertical at 1000yds have an advantage as in their case the ES doesn't matter, every bullet flies on its own trajectory until it converges at the target/tuned distance. Those tuning in the other manner have to then ensure they can hold very tight ES tolerances in low single figures and hope the BC of every bullet is the same to achieve the same level of vertical dispersion.
Based on the science its clear to see that if you can tune for PC at your competition distance and have the facilities, skills and weather window it would be the way to go but many of use dont have the facilities.
So, since I dont have the 1000yd range Im back where I started
My plan is to use my normal 100yd method to establish a happy powder/bullet combo that shows me sub 0.25MOA accuracy then take it back to 300yds. I will also be fitting a barrel tuner to add an extra dimension to fine tuning. Now if anyone would like to add to my thoughts or share any experience of bringing the barrel tuner in Im all ears
Tuning for positive compensation (PC) is very specific, the science shows us that the only time the bullets (which travel at various speeds of often quite large ES) will all converge at the same vertical point (or very close to) is at the tuned distance, whatever that may be. Imagine a series of ballistic curves, the slower bullets have slightly more in terms of trajectory as they leave the barrel later on its harmonic rise than the faster ones but because of these different bullet release/exit points at different trajectories they converge somewhere they are meant to at a specific tuned distance, usually long range.
If we plotted these curves they would all rise above the line of sight then drop back over it again at our zero/tuned distance, at all other times the bullets are on varying trajectories/flight paths so if they land on any other target at any other distance the groups wont be optimised, the further before or after the zero/tuned range the more vertical difference there will be. As such I would never expect a PC tuned 1000yd rifle to shoot small at 100yds, when I say small I mean aggs in the low .2s or less, it just can't happen, I would also expect to see vertical dispersion in the group but exactly how much I dont know, it might show up better at say 300yds. If a rifle dis shoot small at all ranges up to the tuned distance then PC couldn't be happening.
I think we are past the stage of debating if PC exists or works, there are enough guys proving it time and again and having also proven it at less than my required 1000yds I have no doubt it works, sadly its very distance specific
The other method of tuning (which this thread was aimed at) is one of shooting small groups at 100yds then taking them out to 200 and 300yd and again looking for small groups in the sub 0.25MOA range. From there we would be hoping/expecting that the groups also held together at 600yds and then 1000yds and would continue tuning to optimise within the realms of what our MV extreme spreads will allow. If a rifle has been tuned this way and shoots really well at 600yds there is more than an expectation it would also shoot well at 100, 300 and 1000 and what holds the load back would be our ES in terms of vertical dispersion.
The guys who are tuning for PC and can hold in the 1s for vertical at 1000yds have an advantage as in their case the ES doesn't matter, every bullet flies on its own trajectory until it converges at the target/tuned distance. Those tuning in the other manner have to then ensure they can hold very tight ES tolerances in low single figures and hope the BC of every bullet is the same to achieve the same level of vertical dispersion.
Based on the science its clear to see that if you can tune for PC at your competition distance and have the facilities, skills and weather window it would be the way to go but many of use dont have the facilities.
So, since I dont have the 1000yd range Im back where I started
My plan is to use my normal 100yd method to establish a happy powder/bullet combo that shows me sub 0.25MOA accuracy then take it back to 300yds. I will also be fitting a barrel tuner to add an extra dimension to fine tuning. Now if anyone would like to add to my thoughts or share any experience of bringing the barrel tuner in Im all ears
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Curious,
Velocity is the key. Figure out what velocity your gun shoots at. Figure out how wide that window is. Tune your rifle to shoot as small as possible at 100. Check your loads at 200 for flyers. If you have flyers at 200 tweak seating depth until gone.
Go to your 1000 yard match and make sure you are in your velocity window. If you are you’re good to go, if not adjust your load to get inside your velocity window.
Get an Ezell tuner and .25 moa isn’t small enough.
Bart
Velocity is the key. Figure out what velocity your gun shoots at. Figure out how wide that window is. Tune your rifle to shoot as small as possible at 100. Check your loads at 200 for flyers. If you have flyers at 200 tweak seating depth until gone.
Go to your 1000 yard match and make sure you are in your velocity window. If you are you’re good to go, if not adjust your load to get inside your velocity window.
Get an Ezell tuner and .25 moa isn’t small enough.
Bart
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I am at the mercy of tuning at 100yds and 300yds I could write a book on what I have seen that was good on game day and I have scratched my head on game day an said to myself that should have worked if you don't tune at longer distance it is a guessing game period.PS not saying you can't at 100 or 300 but best tune is at distance you shoot.
This!
I believe that adding the tuner will help you in your limited distance for tuning loads. I understand Erik's method, and know that he makes his own tuners. It is certainly worth trying. Test for tight velocity and seating depth, then test for tuner adjustments. I have one of Erik's tuners on my long range F class rifle. It is amazing how much your group can change at 1000yds, just by moving one mark on the tuner.I feel like there is some confusion here that centers around the two basic tuning methods and then the expectations at short range v long rang.
Tuning for positive compensation (PC) is very specific, the science shows us that the only time the bullets (which travel at various speeds of often quite large ES) will all converge at the same vertical point (or very close to) is at the tuned distance, whatever that may be. Imagine a series of ballistic curves, the slower bullets have slightly more in terms of trajectory as they leave the barrel later on its harmonic rise than the faster ones but because of these different bullet release/exit points at different trajectories they converge somewhere they are meant to at a specific tuned distance, usually long range.
If we plotted these curves they would all rise above the line of sight then drop back over it again at our zero/tuned distance, at all other times the bullets are on varying trajectories/flight paths so if they land on any other target at any other distance the groups wont be optimised, the further before or after the zero/tuned range the more vertical difference there will be. As such I would never expect a PC tuned 1000yd rifle to shoot small at 100yds, when I say small I mean aggs in the low .2s or less, it just can't happen, I would also expect to see vertical dispersion in the group but exactly how much I dont know, it might show up better at say 300yds. If a rifle dis shoot small at all ranges up to the tuned distance then PC couldn't be happening.
I think we are past the stage of debating if PC exists or works, there are enough guys proving it time and again and having also proven it at less than my required 1000yds I have no doubt it works, sadly its very distance specific
The other method of tuning (which this thread was aimed at) is one of shooting small groups at 100yds then taking them out to 200 and 300yd and again looking for small groups in the sub 0.25MOA range. From there we would be hoping/expecting that the groups also held together at 600yds and then 1000yds and would continue tuning to optimise within the realms of what our MV extreme spreads will allow. If a rifle has been tuned this way and shoots really well at 600yds there is more than an expectation it would also shoot well at 100, 300 and 1000 and what holds the load back would be our ES in terms of vertical dispersion.
The guys who are tuning for PC and can hold in the 1s for vertical at 1000yds have an advantage as in their case the ES doesn't matter, every bullet flies on its own trajectory until it converges at the target/tuned distance. Those tuning in the other manner have to then ensure they can hold very tight ES tolerances in low single figures and hope the BC of every bullet is the same to achieve the same level of vertical dispersion.
Based on the science its clear to see that if you can tune for PC at your competition distance and have the facilities, skills and weather window it would be the way to go but many of use dont have the facilities.
So, since I dont have the 1000yd range Im back where I started
My plan is to use my normal 100yd method to establish a happy powder/bullet combo that shows me sub 0.25MOA accuracy then take it back to 300yds. I will also be fitting a barrel tuner to add an extra dimension to fine tuning. Now if anyone would like to add to my thoughts or share any experience of bringing the barrel tuner in Im all ears
So without a highly accurate simulator which probably doesn't exist you cant tune for PC at any distance besides the one you're shooting... In that case there'd be formulas figured out which could predict where convergence would be given data sets at 100,200 etc. Perhaps if you thought you had it tuned at one distance you could play with tuners to see about other distances? If time allows I'd like to one day play with tuners to see effects on loads optimized at a given distance then shooting at another. Also given the ES that I've heard most competitors shoot at, this has got to be small, but every bit helps I guess. I'm probably way off base with everything but also this seems like it'd be something more significant at shorter distances before the bullets trajectory is at such a downward curve.
Again I think this would be possible but sadly Im not the man capable of plotting this.
Bullets of different velocities exit the barrel at different times and at different points on the barrels harmonic movement, as such Im sure it would be plotable but whether we could use it to build say a 300yd model which we then recreate using out chrono I dont know. Someone mentioned to me recently JBM ballistic software as a way to plot this but Im afraid its beyond me.
Ive never understood this Bart, the aspect of using velocity as an indicator.
There will be many times when my charge weight will need to change to maintain a velocity, different temperatures to a degree, different powder batches, different bullets, different primers, different stages of a barrels life and probably a good few more. My thinking (which I accept may well be wrong) is that the bullet doesn't know what speed it is doing, Ive tuned loads for good accuracy at different velocities with the same components.
I feel (and again I may be wrong) that powder charge is what affects barrel harmonics so if I tune to maintain a given speed then surely the harmonics will alter and that seems bad to me?
Accepting what you say though, how do I practically figure out what velocity my gun shoots best at and establish how big that window is?
What testing methods should i use?
This seems to me to be much harder than comparing powder charge and seating depth and/or tuner settings?
How small at 100 and 200 do you feel your own rifles need to shoot before you are happy that they will be competitive at 600 and 1000 BR?
Do you then check them further out than 200 or not during testing?
If I understood this velocity thing then I could easily check in in the window the days before a match assuming my match will be shot in similar weather conditions or does that really matter in the sense some powders will remain stable over a typical day temperature swing which for me would be around 10 degrees?
Are you being specific here to an Ezell as being the best or would any good tuner do?
I appreciate there are a lot of questions here but this is what happens when someone gives you something you dont understand, I would be grateful if you could spare the time to reply in more detail as I expect would many others
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I have dabbled with tuners previously, I have no doubt they work but like many Im not sure how exactly or if they could replace one of the two other aspects, powder charge and seating depth?
Something I have wondered is if I could tune the rifle using powder charge and tuner settings alone then I could leave seating depth to be used to try and tune my ES into low single figures. So many times when doing seating depth testing with a given charge weight it has an impact on ES in my experience.
All I ever used was to tune was 100 yds. over flags but I pay attention to group shape, ES. Velocity and if these loads repeat. Second, no one can see a 1mph. change in the wind and at 1000 so how do you tune then?Some areas of the country may be luck enough to have a condition that will hold to do that. Remember wind can blow them in also..... jim
I was hoping to avoid this debate as it doesn't really relate to my topic.
I accept that people are doing it well and winning so that proves to me that it can be done and it works. Having also done it myself and seen the results I dont take any further convincing but thats not the point here.
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the ways we can tune at 100-300yds and still be competitive at 1000.
To me a tuner is a bandaid, it is like treating a symptom rather than curing the illness. You have a lot of things that effect the ability to group small. Powder lots, the velocity may vary so much they will not shoot great, Varget as being the worst. Seating depth and seating up where it likes .001 can make you or break you, and your ability to repeat the same seating depth every time. How close do you need to weigh powder? when is it close enough? Neck tension, man this is one thing you need is uniform neck tension. Now you come down to bullets, You can help them or hurt them nut I check them Base to Ogive and separate them, next is bearing surface both are separated by +- .0005. Trim and point ? I do but I do not close them and I am anal about no movement in pressure ring , shank and bearing surface measurements plus when it stops growing in length. They shoot better in their own group but I never could pick one that was better. Mix them up and they shoot average. Primers Try which ones work best in the load and give you the best ES. You will be amazed at what a different primer does. If you plan to get serious weigh the ones you are going to use. ...jim
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