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Short range police round?

Greetings,
We had "soft" target rifles. A .223 for short range, unobstructed engagements.
John
 
They played this same kinda crap with my mentor, before he retired. "Why do we have to train at long distance, none of or shots are over 75 yds?' His reply, "What happens when you are sitting at the nearest concealment 700yds away from a hijacked jet at PBIA?' He took them to his range and showed them long range hit and they spent DHS money on at least 2 AI 338s. One of the guys took to it and was pretty deadly .
 
Tactical precision shooting has one thing in common with any other rifle shooting and that is even with the range restricted to 300 yards, there is no one perfect cartridge. Especially if the tactical situation is one involving a police force.

Full disclosure, I've fired many 308 rifles as well as 30-06 loaded to near ballistic equivalent, I've only ever owned one 308, I sold it. I use an 06 because it can be loaded heavier, I have a heavier caliber when needed and a lighter caliber which in 99% of situations is plenty. As you can see multiple cartridges.

The lighter cartridge will not handle commercial building glass well, not at all in tall buildings. It does handle body armor well but still has over penetration concerns. The 06 simply adds more energy and range than the 308 has. I have a 35 that will handle commercial glass in tall buildings, when designed it was tested to 800 meters, it will handle medium vehicles.

Since about 1917 until this day the ballistic equivalent of the 308, in many different rifle configurations has served well as tactical precision rigs. Talking crap can't change that history of service, it also will not develop a perfect cartridge for evert situation. Hence, administrators go with what has the history and can be defended in court.
 
Body armor will be a problem as well as window glass.
First how many documented police sniper shots are taken against body armor and or window glass I know there have been a few but they are not by any means the norm…..body armor can be defeated, nobody armors the ankle or even there knees and very seldom their throat or even their pelvic girdle nobody fights with a shot to any of these places, but if your going to worry about such things then may I suggest the .450 bushmaster it won’t penetrate level 4 body armor but it will put them on their ass, it will handle commercial glass as well.
 
It seems I have gored the sacred cow. LOL
No sir, some of our members are acquainted with this situation. About 25 years ago I had a neighbor that was a tactical shooter for the ATF. He said that he had not ever been in a situation over 100yds. Has he shot anybody, I never asked.
 
Was talking to a retired LEO yesterday about their "tactical" teams, making shots at relatively short range, very volatile situations, lots of variables and obviously one shot effectiveness very important. He was saying that the 308 was overkill but that they used it for lack of a better option.

Got me wondering- if shots are known to be relatively short range, 300 yards and in, what would be some rounds to consider?
law enforcement ammunition designed for low penetration and fragmentation does exist, the Department of Agriculture also uses something similar for deer culling in urban environments
https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-tap-urban#!/
 
Why debate at all, the bigger the better. one shot $1 done, no court cost (can run into the millions) no cost to house them, for any amount of time.
One shot, finished no additional expense on to the next one. Watch how things start to change when punishment is dealt right then and there on the spot.
I'll get flamed for this but be honest with yourself before you do and tell us you never thought this way.
 
There are a number of cartridges that are ballistically superior to 308.
Steve, I can't answer if they are in biblical times or know more than you. I personally have 30 cal bullets from 110-240 grains in every design known to man.
Ballistically superior? Do we know the parameters that make the 308 the go to round for most law enforcement agencies. A 6PPC is much more accurate wouldn't you say.
 
Limited training time, limited budgets, limited space in vehicles, conditions change w/o warning. One 20-300 yd gun is good. Big events get familiarization with venues and sometimes live fire at large areas like airports, NASCAR tracks, etc.

Intermediate barriers are quite common. Vehicles, commercial and residential buildings, etc. Very common. For the relatively few shootings, lots of those.

308 is very very very common in military, paramilitary and police use, so bullets and cartridges are loaded for all sorts of specialist purposes. It is easy to get good performing (for whatever parameters you want!) 308 cartridges. Handloads are nearly unheard of; it must be factory ammo.

Guns, training, and support systems persist for a long time. Very few agencies are going to change their mind every decade or less to change to the caliber of the week.

Many teams use semi-auto guns as followups are more important than precision. The precision is relative. What many on this forum consider accurate is miles ahead of what is needed by police marksmen. Reliability is unquestioned though so anything that is fussy at all is no-go.

There is no need for the guns to be especially light, small, or to support subsonic projectiles.

The ability to engage rapidly, with precision, at arbitrarily long ranges is a deterrent. Think how often countersnipers are visible on rooftops. They are not bad at hiding, and their lack of engaging at long range means it is working.



There is a report available for those with professional creds. Here's a summary:
To date, we have collected reports of over 500 police sniper shootings that occurred between 1984 and 2022. Some highlights:

  • Not surprisingly, the .308 was the most common caliber firearm used by snipers. Others employed have included .223, .30-06, .300 WM and .338.
  • Contrary to common belief, fewer than half of the persons shot were struck in the head. Most suspects were hit in the body or extremities.
  • Much traditional sniper training has been limited to prone, bipod 100-yard shooting drills. The report verifies that sniper shootings may be done from a variety of distances and are seldom from a prone bipod position. In fact, documentation shows nearly half of snipers have had to utilize standing, sitting, kneeling, squatting, or improvised positions. Hopefully, this knowledge will inspire teams to incorporate position shooting into their training programs. It certainly removes the most common excuses to avoid doing so.
  • Nearly 98% of recorded police sniper shootings took place at distances less than 200 yards. This is contrary to the belief that snipers in rural areas deploy and shoot at long ranges.
  • Night-vision equipment has played only a limited role in actual shootings to date. However, there is a demonstrated need for teams to purchase and train with night vision. Nearly 45% of the shootings documented occurred during low-light hours.
  • We have documented dozens of instances where two or more snipers fired simultaneous shots at a single suspect. However, none of the reports received recorded sniper engagements on multiple suspects.
 
First how many documented police sniper shots are taken against body armor and or window glass I know there have been a few but they are not by any means the norm…..body armor can be defeated, nobody armors the ankle or even there knees and very seldom their throat or even their pelvic girdle nobody fights with a shot to any of these places, but if your going to worry about such things then may I suggest the .450 bushmaster it won’t penetrate level 4 body armor but it will put them on their ass, it will handle commercial glass as well.
A tactical rifleman needs to be prepared for the widest set of scenarios. A car windshield, commercial glass and body armor are just a few things. A 450 is useless for many scenarios in my opinion.
 
Steve, I can't answer if they are in biblical times or know more than you. I personally have 30 cal bullets from 110-240 grains in every design known to man.
Ballistically superior? Do we know the parameters that make the 308 the go to round for most law enforcement agencies. A 6PPC is much more accurate wouldn't you say.
Yes, 6PPC is much more accurate.

I don't think ballistic superiority is the reason 308 is, as you accurately stated, the go to round for most law enforcement agencies.
 
You will find that most LE departments use either the 5.56 or 308 as a primary caliber in thier rifles. Some have weapons in both calibers, but by in large the 5.56 is used most often.
 

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