shipping primers to another poster?

[JimPag]

I recall the Value-Jet crash clearly as I was at the family home near Key West when it went down in the Everglades with loss of all souls on board. Proper Haz-mat training and protocol would have prevented the fire in the cargo hold that brought down the aircraft. I am more comfortable while flying commercial knowing that I am less likely to have improperly packaged and dangerous cargo below my seat. I am against any unnecessary government regulations.....which seems like most are......particularly federal....but I am OK with covering the shipper's Hazmat costs.

I'm talking about primers & smokeless powder, not the oxygen bottles that brought that jet down, and I'm not talking radioactive crap either.

 

[rogn]

Has there ever been a documented incident related to or involving smokeless powder or primers being shipped in recorded history? I have not heard of such. Yes there are potential problems with many products, but were reloading supplies included due to actual threat or histrionics or political activism?

 

[XTR]

Has there ever been a documented incident related to or involving smokeless powder or primers being shipped in recorded history? I have not heard of such. Yes there are potential problems with many products, but were reloading supplies included due to actual threat or histrionics or political activism?

There are lots of incidents every yr with hazmat. Whether or not it is specifically reloading powder. The issue isn't just whether or not improperly packaged material caused the problem.

Do you know why your primer boxes look like they do? It is DOT spec to keep them from causing problems.

It has nothing to do with "actual threat or histrionics or political activism". You have to realize that to you it may seem totally normal to sell your powder and ship it in the original packages, which would all in all keep you in compliance with the packaging requirement, but you'd still fail to provide the proper shipping papers to ensure that the carrier knew what he was shipping, see there are these separation requirements for certain types of material that you can't put in proximity to one another or they have nasty reactions if one leaks.

Then there is the whole thought of hey, I'll just take these 8lb jugs and pour them all into a bag in a cardboard box and ship it in a flat rate box.

think stupid stuff like that doesn't happen. A couple of guys in a pickup truck in TX plugged the pressure relief on a Liquid Oxygen dewer they were carrying in a pickup truck. The investigators initially thought it was a bomb detonation in the interstate until someone randomly found the top half of the dewer 300 feet away in a tree.

The risk is two fold. First is hazmat that is shipped w/o proper documentation so that the carrier doesn't realize the risk is there. Even if properly packaged it is a "HEY SURPRISE!" thing that emergency responders do not need. The second risk is improperly packaged hazmat that can result in an incident, which will undoubtedly be compounded by the lack of proper documentation.

Ever wonder why your powder jugs are never full? It is a shipping requirement to limit the volume/reactive mass of the mass of Class 1 material in a given space.

This is just scratching the surface, guys who have worked in the transportation or emergency response industry will tell you, this is not BS, this crap is real. Trucks crash, trains derail, and airplanes have been known to burn up at the terminal, Sometimes those things are caused by hazmats, and even if it's not, you don't want surprises when you are trying to un-frack the situation.

 

[rogn]

Im not arguing with your rationale, but what I am questioning is why are many things such as flammable solids subject to hazmat fees as exorbitant as they are when many aerosols are exempt from any extra shipping charges. Primers are packaged the way they are both due to regulation and good sense on the part of manufacturers. Incidentally some brands are still packaged the way they were in the early 50s, some such as Federal have taken to special packaging.
At any rate Im questioning the legitimacy of the hazmat fees, now increasing even though there is no inflation, when yes there is training, and yes its warranted. BUT how many canisters of flammable solid have you uncapped and measured the unused volume. It would seem by your own statements that a package marked flammable solids needs a clearly defined label but one costing 25$, 27.50$ or how much.
These fees seem more to be generated by intent rather than need. The statement I made was that I dont believe there has ever been a documented PRIMARY incident caused by propellant powders or primers that were not secondary to some other mishap, "trucks crash, trains, etc".

 

[XTR]

Aerosols are a Class 3 flammable, powder and primers are a Class 1 explosive. There is a regulatory difference. Most aerosols are "excepted packages", that is a term with a specific regulatory meaning, powders are not.

Look at the charges incurred when you try to ship liquid solvents, it's not that different, and the charges that are passed on are not necessarily what is charged to the guy selling or shipping to you, there is probably some "what the market will bear" in there too.

When I do a project and I ship 6 rail cars with 600 tons of remediation soil by rail to Utah you can bet that I don't get the same rate that Morton Salt gets when they ship a 50 car unit train every few days. Half a million to 3/4 of a million may sound like a lot of $$ but in the grand scheme of transportation $$ it's peanuts.

 

[rogn]

Anyhow my contention is that reloading supplies are condemned with a broad brush and that the materials are packed and labelled accordingly from the initial manufacturer/shipper. That being the case and governmental oversight being what it is, those who have the best interest of every one at heart are thsoe penalized, often needlessly. Hazmat fees on smokeless and primers packaged properly amount to little more than an additional tax or a cash cow for the transportation industry. You have pretty much indicated those Darwin applicants are not going to be compliant or affected by such legislation or expenses.

 

[XTR]

Anyhow my contention is that reloading supplies are condemned with a broad brush and that the materials are packed and labelled accordingly from the initial manufacturer/shipper. That being the case and governmental oversight being what it is, those who have the best interest of every one at heart are thsoe penalized, often needlessly. Hazmat fees on smokeless and primers packaged properly amount to little more than an additional tax or a cash cow for the transportation industry. You have pretty much indicated those Darwin applicants are not going to be compliant or affected by such legislation or expenses.

You are not getting it. The rules are there for HAZMAT, all hazmat, period. Hazmat fees pay for training. My personal annual training costs run between $6000 and $10,000 a yr. Guys like me who come in and do training at your facility for your employees will typically charge $400 to $1500/per student depending on the length and detail of the class. In addition to that all of the people are on payroll while they are in training.

And... If you cant see how improperly packaged gunpowder and/or primers could pose a significant risk to either transportation workers or emergency responders then I'm wasting time (though there may be a few onlookers who are learning something).

If you want me to come and ship it for you I don't leave the office for less than $5000 (and that's not much when you consider travel costs)

If you can't afford a $30 hazmat fee you are in the wrong game.

 

[rogn]

Oh well. Iam glad you are doing the job you re dong. It is definetely necessary. As is the training and CE. But your our arguments state that reloading supplies are appropriately handled from the start. The packaging is compliant. There is little to nothing done to shipping past that point.
your job on the otherhand has the potential to screw up a significant part of the country if not performed conscientiously, life limb and the future of generations. I applaud you for it.
The 30$ comment is a bit patronizing and I dont appreciate it. The hazmat fees even if i can afford the 30$ is sort of like a splinter in my thumb that irritates the stuff out of me. I stand by my "cash cow" statement.

 

[Mr.Spradlin]

XTR as a prior hazmat shipper/preparer and have had this conversation many many times over in person with several folks. Some just feel its another way of taxing the shooter or something along those lines.
Do companies like Powder Valley, sinclair or Brunos make some money off the haz mat fee. Of course they do and they would be stupid not to. What people seem to forget is thoses lables and little haz decs cost money and so does the training and the employees hourly rate. They also dont seem to realise that UPS or Fedex also has to pay the drivers more $$$ because they carry hazmat endorsement or the cost of insuring rigs hauling hazmat aint cheep by any means and what about the permits the rigs have to have to travel hazmat over the road.
Its an expensive ordeal.

 

[rogn]

XTR and MRS we are talking about different things and I certainly dont "get it". i also believe the opposite is true. To continue this further would undoubtedly result in rolling around in the mud. Let us respect one another and just suffer the others differing viewpoint. Rogn

 

[Mr.Spradlin]

XTR and MRS we are talking about different things and I certainly dont "get it". i also believe the opposite is true. To continue this further would undoubtedly result in rolling around in the mud. Let us respect one another and just suffer the others differing viewpoint. Rogn

I understand that folks feel that the hazmat fee has gotten a little out of hand. And that some folks dont think that primers and powder need to be declared as a hazmat.
As far as why they are hazmat can be many things from what is required to put them out if they are on fire to not being aloud to be on the same trailer / aircraft or rail car with other items that have different classifications of hazmat and that is what it is intended for. Safety!

So when a manufacture sends bottled powder or packaged primers out its in a BIG shipment with one hazmat certification say 100 case of primers. When the distributer gets it they have to break it down and certify it for what the next order is for say 20 case of primers and so on so forth. Even tho the product is still in the manufactures packaging they are always overpacked and the shipper needs to know exactly whats in the box and how it is packaged.

Now the fee is a trickle down effect. So no company wants to loose money and always wants to show a proffit. So UPS had to raise hazmat fees due to insurance preimiums increaseing. That cost gets trickled down from the powder manufacture with a tad bit of a proffit on UPS end. Well then the next stop does the same thing and so on till we get it shipped to us.

Now my thoughts on this is its supply and demand. We demand powder and primers and they supply it. They also see a potential $$$ I dont think its companies like PV or Burnos but starting at the top of the chain with UPS or Fedex. They keep track of hazmat data and have a good amount of historical date. Well they saw a major increase is hazmat shipping which is a $$$ maker for them and they raised costs. Think about it EVERY time that powder or primer is moved the shipping company makes $$$. So how many times is a bottle of powder shipped before we get it????

 

[Concha]

If powder and primers are so dangerous why does it not have hazmat labeling?

 

[XTR]

They do. Posting a chart of placards, and then asking about labels demonstrates just how much you don't understand. (and why you should never try to ship hazmat w/o training) Labeling requirements are found in 49CFR172.400, Placarding is found in 172.500. The requirement for placarding for Class 4 .

The specific placarding requirements are found here in 49CFR172.504 (this is one of the last things you figure out on a shipment)
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...17a8728&mc=true&node=se49.2.172_1504&rgn=div8



Powder is shipped as a Class 4, Flammable Solid. It gets a class 4 label. If you want to see those requirements go here: (this is where you start)

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...true&node=pt49.2.173&rgn=div5#se49.2.173_1124

Once you figure out what it is then you go to:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...17a8728&mc=true&node=se49.2.172_1101&rgn=div8

and select the correct proper shipping name for your material.

Once you get the proper shipping name it's pretty easy from there

Oh, and Primers get shipped as a 1.4 Explosive.