Seeking advice, Replacing F-Class .308 barrel with ?

[Papa Charlie]

I probably already know where this is going to go. I have a Remington 700 SA chambered in .308 with a factory Heavy Varmint Barrel. I have been shooting 185gr Berger Juggernauts and getting 1.03" five shot groupings at 200 yards.
I started shooting F-TR class at 500 yards in March of this year. Love it, but don't have the money to build a custom rifle. I have outfitted my rifle with an XLR Evolution chassis, extreme butt stock, Timney 517 trigger, Harris Bipod and a Vortex Viper 4.5-6x50mm HST. I like the feel of the gun and the pistol grip. But I am frustrated with the my performance. At 500 yards, 20 scoring rounds I am getting 195-7X. At 200 yards I get 1.03" 5 round pattern.
I don't expect to compete with the guys that have custom actions, stocks and 6x60x54mm scopes, but would like to make a decent showing.
Barrel now has 1653 rounds through it, probably at the life of a Remington factory barrel. I am saving up to have Benchmark put a new barrel on. Looking at a MTU 11, 1:10 twist, 5 groove, 30" length, 1.25" dia for 5", straight contour down to 0.900 at muzzle. Would like to have no contour, but I need to keep the gun weight under 18lb 2oz if I say with the .308 caliber and in the F-TR class.
One of my concerns is if I go with another caliber, I will need to replace all my competition dies along with the cost of a new barrel and the truing and blueprinting cost. Benchmark alone is $870 plus tax.
If I do go with different caliber, that means I will have to compete in F-Open. Won't be weight restricted, but would need to consider a lot more gear to be competitive.
So here is where I looking for some advice. Should I stay with the .308 or should I go with something like a 6.5CM? What is your opinions? What barrel configuration would you recommend? What other gear, at the very least would you recommend?
Thanks everyone in advance. Here is a picture of my rifle before I took off the muzzle brake and installed the Vortex Viper. Next purchase to save up for would be a Vortex Golden Eagle. But that will be a ways off.

 

[Clancy]

PM sent

 

[sfldiver]

Charlie, here's my thoughts. To be competitive in F-Open, you need a serious front and rear rest, as well as quality barrel, etc. - All that is EXPENSIVE$$$. If it were me, I'd stick with FTR. However, I'd be looking to upgrade your scope to higher magnification. If cost is a consideration, take a look at the Sightron SIII 10-50X60 LRTD (Target Dot Reticle) - you can find it for under $900 and is a fine scope, and will save you some $ compared to the Vortex. I'd also be looking to upgrade your bipod. The Harris is ok, but not ideal for FTR. Personally, i know it's expensive, but i use and like the SEB JOYPOD. The joystick will help you position your reticle on target much quicker, without having to touch or move the rifle - expensive, but worth EVERY PENNY, plus, it's light and helps you reduce weight. I'd also consider getting a proper rear rest - Protektor makes fine rear rests that are reasonably priced, compared to other options and will keep your rifle very stable and tracking straight back with recoil. With regards to the barrel, I think you're on right track there. Upgrading your barrel and having it chambered long enough to fit the bullets you'd like to shoot (i.e., 185g, 200g, etc.) is critical.

Unfortunately, nice new shinny toys are expensive, so sorry for recommending anything that might be out of you current budget.

That's my 2 Cents, which normally isn't worth even that much.

Good luck and have fun shooting!

 

[spaniel]

I concur; stick with F/TR. You'll have a hard time being competitive in Open without going to the drawing board.

You can make improvements like the scope and rear rest while you are shooting F/TR. If you decide you want to shoot Open, frankly, I'd build from a new rifle. I like your chassis but not for Open.

 

[CharlieNC]

Shoot more than 5 at 200yd to better qualify your equipment / load capability which is in the .5moa range. If that holds up then a bipod and scope are probably in order for longer ranges. Your 500yd scores are very respectable esp if you have much wind. I second the Sightron; last year I used the 8-32 and really liked it. When a barrel is needed you should consider a CBI Relate and replace yourself. A number of us shoot fine with them.

 

[Tempest]

Just my limited $.02. I built a gun new gun for my son this season using a Benchmark barrel for FTR. The barrel, round and trigger change was worth on avg 20 points over a stock set up from the last few years (with a very good handload). So I'm very satisfied with the quality of their product.

At the end of the day, you can have a great rifle, but FTR is going to be more about wind reading and when not to shoot. But I still love FTR for that reason.

 

[Scott Harris]

If you don't shoot longer than 600 yards and want to be competitive with minimal cost: get a 223 REM for F-TR. This is more economical than 308 win and easily capable of winning at 600 yards or less. Also recoil is not a factor so you don't have to spend money and time figuring out how to get the rifle up to 18 lbs. This requires a different bolt face/action, but would be well worth considering if you are on a budget and want to be competitive.

PS. you DO NOT need a custom rifle to compete and win. You do need a reliable scope/base/ring combo and good ammo! Current make R700s are made very well. The rifle in your picture would work fine: just get a new 223 bolt for it.

 

[243Mendoza]

I agree in replacing your Harris with a ski-type bipod. I suspect that your Harris hops during recoil or go through an arc trajectory. Also need a better rear bag to stabilize your rifle and minimize muscle control. Your scope is much to low magnification.

 

[6BRinNZ]

Stick with ftr for all of the reasons mentioned.
Points lost are any of them to vertical? If so I would swap from the Harris and rear bag as the first change. Scope would be next imo and will most likely help with x count once the setup and wind calls are putting them in the 10 ring.
You might be doing this already...
If points lost are due to wind ask yourself a key question....why. figure out strategies for coping. read up on mirage. Maybe plot for a while it might show where you lose points such as typically you miss a drop off or typically you under estimate.
Have you had anyone film you so you can see your technique. Most people move around a lot more than they realise.
Have you read the wind book for rifle shooters?
Best of luck.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Guys, thank you for all your input. Very much appreciated. I agree, that trying to compete in F-Open would be a mistake. I don't go to the matches to compete against the others, but to compete against myself. I find that most of my bad days are because of me, but my gear is also an issue.

Couldn't agree with you more on the barrel, that is the next upgrade. My present barrel is the Remington factory 1:12, 26" Varmint barrel. For what it is, I think it has done pretty good. But I have found that I like the Berger 185gr Juggernauts and recently tried the 200.20X. My group is reasonable with the 185s, but with the 1:12 twist and the barrel harmonics I am not getting the true benefit from these rounds. My harmonics were better with the weight of the Muzzle Brake, but the range where the matches are held do not allow them so had to remove it. I have calculated that the bullet efficiency is about 1.44 based on the Berger calculator and my barrel. I have sent an RFQ to CBI to see what they charge for a barrel. Still looking at the same configuration as in my original post, but have also asked for their opinion as well.

I have looked at the ski type bipods and would love to be able to find a used Joypod that I could afford, but as you all know they are not cheap. Still will keep looking. I would appreciate some recommendations here. I do get a lot of jump with the Harris bipod. Also, I don't believe I can produce consistent preload and have found this to be an issue as well.

Looking for some recommendations on a rear bag. One thing I think may be causing me issues is that my rifle may be too low as a result of the rear bag, causing me to have to bend down too much. Looking at National competitors pictures, they seem to have a higher poster than I do. I know that my neck starts to ache having to bend down so far and I don't think I am getting proper seating of the butt on my shoulder either because of my bodies angle.

My plan for equipment, at least today is:
1) Replacement barrel designed for F-TR
2) Rear Bag, need to understand the tech behind these better
3) Bipod F-Class, ski style, I know what I like, but will have to find a used one
4) Scope, this may take a while. I had to build up to the Vortex that I have now. I went through several before I found a brand and model that truly held zero. I would like to have at least 30 power. After I get the above, I may be able to sell the one I got and find a used Vortex GE that I can get into.

As for loading, I think I am doing pretty good in this area. At least given the obstacles that I have to deal with. I have developed a good repeatable process. I am using good materials (Berger, Lapua, Varget, CCI BR-2). I load powder to within 0.1gr of final and trickle with a Omega power trickler to the final. My ES is <30 and my SD is about 8. Eventually, I want to get a lab grade scale to refine my loads.

So many things to learn and to acquire. Regardless of my limitations, I am enjoying the heck out of this sport and the people, as is evidence by the replies. Again, thank you all for your advice.

 

[Highpower-FClass]

2) Rear Bag, need to understand the tech behind these better

I started out with a Caldwell rear bag, soft style, not entirely unlike the one in your picture, and while functional it did not provide a key element you need in a rear bag - a stable platform. It was serviceable on a bench but prone, way too wobbly.

Three of the most commonly used rear bag brands that I have seen at competitions are Protektor, Edgewood (their Gater bags) and to some extent SEB. If you have one of these, especially filled with 'heavy sand' (product sold by Brownells and others), your rifle will be much more stable and track better during recoil.

Which rear bag to get? It is hard to go wrong with any of these three but best would be if you could ask folks at the next match you attend if you could borrow one for each match. If someone shooting on a different relay has a Protektor, ask if you could try it for a match etc. (you will find F-Class shooters as a whole a very helpful bunch of nice folk, happy to help out new shooters). That way you can get a feel for if you find one to be a better fit for you and your rifle.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Been looking at the Protektor Bumble Bee (http://protektormodel.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=41). Any opinions on these? Thinking of the Slick Silver ears in 1.25" height. I was wondering, my butt stock has a 1" diameter sand bag rail. What spread between the ears would you recommend if I go this route. There are other models too, that are cheaper, but too many to choose from.

One thing I have noticed at the few matches I have competed in, is that many have built wood risers to increase the height of the rear bag.

 

[Ringostar]

Your scores aren't bad for the equipment that you have. If your only shooting mid range, you really don't need a heavy bullet. I don't believe that your factory barrel is worn out yet. I recommend trying 155gr Palma bullets through it. They are plenty accurate enough for the distance, and would be better with the twist rate that you have. Before you spend the money on a new barrel, give them a serious test. Look for a good used bipod, it doesn't have to be a SEB. Then get a better rear bag, and some spacers to raise it up higher off the ground. Chunks of plywood work for this, then you can stack them for various height. Shooting points vary up and down, so you can adjust for the ground conditions.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I tried the 155 Palma's, couldn't make them settle down for love or money. I will be putting up whats left of the 500 count box. My rifle barrel did much better with the weight of the clamp on muzzle brake. As soon as I removed it, my spread go horrible. The Berger 185 Juggernauts help to settle it back down. Wouldn't have figured a heavier round would have helped, but every rifle is different, this one is a PIA. I think the barrel is one of the best ways I can improve on it. I have spent what seems like a fortune on bullets trying to get this to what I have. May be wrong, but have mad the decision to buy a barrel. Now deciding on the barrel. Was convinced to go with Benchmark, but now am checking out CBI. One advantage of Benchmark was they were to include Truing and Blueprinting of the action.

 

[Ned Ludd]

There are a number of ways you can "upgrade" and still save a little money. For example, a Sightron SIII 8-32x56 or 10-50x60 would be a fine scope and save you about $400-$500.

The barrel you described is not an MTU contour, but rather a Heavy Varmint contour. MTU contour is 1.25" for 2.75", then tapers to 0.930. The HV is 1.25" for 5", then tapers to 0.90". At a 30" finish length, the HV will be a bit heavier than the MTU, but you can make weight with either/both depending the weight of your other components. A finished 30" MTU barrel in .308 will run just a hair under 7.5 lb. If you're going to the trouble of rebarreling the rifle, I would suggest looking at a Bartlein/Krieger/Brux cut-rifled barrel; the cost difference won't be all that great. Stick with a 10-twist, have it chambered with something like the FTR reamer (0.170" freebore), and you'll be able to shoot any bullet up to about 210 gr (if you choose), or you can stay with the 185s.

If you're accustomed to loading the bipod (i.e. Harris-style) and not necessarily wed to the idea of switching to a ski-/sled-type bipod, take a look at the Long Range Accuracy bipod (Eurooptic carries them). It's basically a 2X-sized Harris or Atlas with a much wider and more stable footprint.

So there a number of things you can do with your setup to potentially enhance/improve precision. It is not necessary to do them all at once. If I had to make the choice, I'd start first with the barrel, then a scope. With those in place, you can get accustomed to the new setup and determine what other items (bipod, rear bag, etc.) you think it needs. But a high quality 30" barrel chambered to allow you a variety of good BC bullet options is probably where I'd start.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I pulled the barrel model directly from Benchmark's web page. Maybe they have changed their designation. Definitely going with the 1:10 twist. I will be getting a 30" barrel so maybe they change the designation from their standard contours. Definitely not an expert on this at all, but learning. I contacted CBI yesterday and they sent me to Northland Shooter Supply. Will be calling and talking to a James Kessler today. I would like to be able to buy and install my own barrels. That would save a lot, but would also like to ensure that my action is trued. So still debating which way to go. Need to understand more about truing and blueprinting the action. I have done a bit of precision machining in my day, don't have the equipment any more, but still retain some of the knowledge.



I agree with being able to shoot the larger weight bullets. I want to do more development with the Berger 200.20X, but would be a waste of time in my present barrel with a 1:12 twist.

Not married to the Harris, just what I started with. I am the only one at the match I go to that uses a traditional bipod. Most are using the ski type for F-TR. I would love to get an SEB Joypod. But that will be down the road. Will be looking for something, not sure what, used until then.

I can pick up a Vortex Golden Eagle used for about $1000 give or take. With their warranty, I have no risk in purchasing used and it saves me $500. I like Vortex, very comfortable and I like the variable eye relief. I have shot a friends NF and that thing is very picky when it comes to aligning yourself.

 

[Shynloco]

IMHO, if you are interested in competing, regardless of the discipline, may I suggest you take a look at the JP Precision barrels. Yes they can be pricey but what a difference they produce down range on your target. I had a custom AR built (mostly JP Precision parts and a Geissele Trigger) only because I wanted pure accuracy compared to two "standard" but accurate shooting AR's my son's own. My baby shoots better groups than some BR bolt gun rifles I've seen shot for score.

Alex

 

[JBT47]

You've gotten some good recommendations so far.
In my opinion, go with the Benchmark barrel and have a gunsmith chamber and fit for you rather than a prefit barrel. Benchmark barrels shoot every bit as good as a cut rifled barrel. All the premium barrel makers produce great barrels. More important than the name of the barrel maker is the gunsmiths job in chambering and fitting.

 

[Papa Charlie]

Thanks for the comments. I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge that I have tapped into. I hear what everyone is saying. I know I have an issue with the barrel I have, so I am replacing it first, I am also planning on a new rear bag, which will probably be a Bumble Bee. I have been checking the classifieds.

I also hear everyone loud and clear on the scope. I like my Vortex, but at 500 yards, the X is a very small circle to line up on. This is why I am thinking about getting a prefit barrel although don't know if it really saves me that much when you add another $160 for the tools and rosin. I have seen the Vortex GE used for about $1000. My Vortex Viper HST 4.5x24-50MM is only three months old, if I can get close to the $600+ I spent for it, that would go a long way towards the GE.

I think my shooting is reasonable for my equipment. If I had a better scope I may shave a few points, but I would still be fighting the POS barrel I have now and would push a new barrel way out in my budget.

 

[DirtySteve]

Change the barrel out to custom 308 barrel, have the action trued and use the same scope and bipod.! If you go from a 1/2 moa barrel to a1/4 moa you will be far better off. Those just into the 9 ring will be 10's. Wind calls make or break your scores. You can not get around that. But confidence in your barrel is paramount. I recommend Rock Creek Barrels. I have three and they are all shooters. But Bartlien, Krieger, and others are all fine barrels go with the one you think will give you the most accuracy. You must have confidence in the accuracy of your rifle. All that being said, Shooting 97.5% is respectable.!!