Maybe your old LEE seater had a different shaped seating stem? Or maybe you're now using a different shaped bullet? It's possible that the tip of some of your bullets are making contact w/ the seating stem causing the variation. To chk. this possibility 1st sort bullets by ogive length w/ comparator then chk same bullets using seating stem removed from die as a comparator. I've found this problem in the past & simply used a small drill to deepen the seater stem. This insured the stem touched the ogive NOT the bullet tip.....Bullets w/ very sharp polycarbonate tips often touch only the tip of the bullet in the seating stem. Other super pointy bullets will do the same. Should this be the problem, the "fix" will also improve concentricity (bullet run-out) in loaded rounds. Just a thought.
Seating Depth
- Thread starter savageshooter86
- Start date
Dale did not switch bullets from when using Lee Die or the new Forster. Bullets are the 178 BTHP bullets. Seating stem is touching the ogive of the bullets. I colored bullets and twisted bullet to see where it was contacting. All bullets were measured to get same ogive reading and same base to metplat measurement. So was not due to any of those differences.
Jlow-- all brass fired same exact times(2x) and prepped the same way. Measured the same way and also sorted like previously posted.
Jlow-- all brass fired same exact times(2x) and prepped the same way. Measured the same way and also sorted like previously posted.
Texas Solo
B.S. High Master
Wondering if there's an update to this. I've had the same problem with inconsistent OAL's. I'm not new to reloading at all, but I am new to ACCURATE loading for my new F class rifle. I've started off with Berger 80gr VLD, as recommended by a friend. At first, my seating stem wasn't deep enough, seating bullets off the nose. VERY INCONSISTENT. I got a Forster die and started measuring to the lands via the ogive, not the nose of bullet. It's helped, but I still get some variance of up to .005".
I'm going to try some Sierra 80's for one reason: the VLD's are so long & pointy that seating them to the lands leaves little bullet in the case neck. The Sierra has a more blunt ogive and doesn't need to be seated so far out to reach the lands. Maybe I'm all wet, but it's worth a try. FWIW, I'm shooting a Shilen Select Match Grade barrel in .223 Wylde, 1/7.
As with others, the press & die are rock solid. Brass is all once fired Hornady, all prepped the same. To me, logic says it's a bullet issue.
Here's hoping the OP will tell us what he's discovered.
I'm going to try some Sierra 80's for one reason: the VLD's are so long & pointy that seating them to the lands leaves little bullet in the case neck. The Sierra has a more blunt ogive and doesn't need to be seated so far out to reach the lands. Maybe I'm all wet, but it's worth a try. FWIW, I'm shooting a Shilen Select Match Grade barrel in .223 Wylde, 1/7.
As with others, the press & die are rock solid. Brass is all once fired Hornady, all prepped the same. To me, logic says it's a bullet issue.
Here's hoping the OP will tell us what he's discovered.
UPDATE****
Ok Forster called and informed me everything with die was good. He informed me the brass I sent was near perfect and very uniform(that's good to see my brass prep is paying off.) He was getting 0.001" at most variance in the seating depths when he seated the bullets. So I have no idea.
Said he was going to mark the cases with how much difference there was and for me to check with my calipers/bullet comparator to see if I get same difference. So informed me this narrows it down to a couple things it possibly could be.......
1] The Lee bushing that the die threads in to. Have to use them since I have the Lee Breach Lock Press
2] The bullet comparator
3] The calipers
Ok Forster called and informed me everything with die was good. He informed me the brass I sent was near perfect and very uniform(that's good to see my brass prep is paying off.) He was getting 0.001" at most variance in the seating depths when he seated the bullets. So I have no idea.
Said he was going to mark the cases with how much difference there was and for me to check with my calipers/bullet comparator to see if I get same difference. So informed me this narrows it down to a couple things it possibly could be.......
1] The Lee bushing that the die threads in to. Have to use them since I have the Lee Breach Lock Press
2] The bullet comparator
3] The calipers
Forum Boss
Administrator
If you have a ton of neck tension AND the tip of the seating stem is sharp and not well-matched to bullet ogive shape, you can get a situation where the bullet resists pushing down in the case neck and the mouth of the seater stem starts digging a circular groove in the bullet jacket. This, in turn can lead to variances in base-to-ogive measured seating depths.
You can also get a problem with badly fouled shellholders, or dies that have bad lock rings. But my guess in this situation is too much neck tension.
To get a better fit of the seating stem on the jacket, you can chuck a bullet in a drill, coat the bullet with flitz or other polish, and run it gently up into the mouth of the stem (the part that contacts your bullet). Be gentle -- you are just lightly "profiling" the end of the stem. This by itself can often eliminate the issue of digging into the jacket.
First of all, reading Reply #14, you did not mentioned that you chamfered the necks of the cases (BTW, debur is not chamfering). If you really did not do this, it will be a problem as chamfering ease the ability of the bullets to enter the neck and not chamfering will cause scoring of the bullets and inconsistent felt seating force.
Another factor not discussed thus far is seating force and speed. You should always seat the bullets very soft and slow at the end of the stroke. A fast hard seat will cause the bullet to seat deeper with everything the same.
The smoothness of the inside of the necks will affect felt seating force – most folks here polish with 000 steel wool. I wrap it around a bore brush and polish with it chucked in a hand drill. Inconsistent felt seating force will cause inconsistent bullet seating depth.
As to the bullet being the source of the problem, it could be but frankly I use both Noslers and Sierras and I can seat them with variance of 0.001†consistently so a variance of 0.0095†is not correct.
Another factor not discussed thus far is seating force and speed. You should always seat the bullets very soft and slow at the end of the stroke. A fast hard seat will cause the bullet to seat deeper with everything the same.
The smoothness of the inside of the necks will affect felt seating force – most folks here polish with 000 steel wool. I wrap it around a bore brush and polish with it chucked in a hand drill. Inconsistent felt seating force will cause inconsistent bullet seating depth.
As to the bullet being the source of the problem, it could be but frankly I use both Noslers and Sierras and I can seat them with variance of 0.001†consistently so a variance of 0.0095†is not correct.
bullets are seated nice and slow. All feel the same. sorry I do chamfer/debur using LE Wilson tool for it. Like my last post updating situation said Forster told me my cases were prepped good and very consistent. So it is something with my press or my calipers according to Forster techs.
Funny how I can randomly pick any of my 223 cases(not prepped) and pick random bullets, seat them, and they all measure within 0.0005". This is off same press and measured the same method to the ogive. So I don't believe it is my measuring technique. So
Funny how I can randomly pick any of my 223 cases(not prepped) and pick random bullets, seat them, and they all measure within 0.0005". This is off same press and measured the same method to the ogive. So I don't believe it is my measuring technique. So
You don’t really need to measure the case the Forster guy seated to test you calipers. All you need is to take a single seated case and measure it multiple times. If your caliper or measuring technique is off, you will not be able to get a consistent number. Surely not 0.0095†variance if everything is kosher.
I am about to go measure my 223 bullet I did and see what I get measuring it 10 times. If it is same then my technique/calipers should not be the issue
You can do that, or you can do it with the same bullet (175gr BTHP) and case combo that you are having a problem with. Problem with tools and techniques can sometimes be situation specific. The closer you are to the stuff you are having problems with the more realistic and meaningful the test will be.
thanks jlow. Measured 223 60 gr vmax and got same reading about 8 out of 10. Measured an old 168 amax and got same reading 9 out of ten times. And the one or two times I got a different reading it was only off 0.0005"
Will see what I get when I get the die back from Forster.
Will see what I get when I get the die back from Forster.
Savageshooter,
From reading over your subsequent posts, I'm even MORE convinced that the expressed seating depth variation is due to variation in the NOSE profile of your 178g bullets. You really want to try and solve this mystery? Try this to separate the potential sources of variation in a step-wise fashion:
Take out 10 bullets at random. With your 30 cal insert in the comparator, set aside the ones with the LEAST variation in bearing length (this takes bearing length of the bullets themselves out of the equation and isolates cause of variation on other factors). IN other words, keep testing on the bullets with m/l the same bearing length, base to ogive.
Put a 22 cal insert into your comparator (the size is closer to the ID of your seating stem). Measure the bearing length matched batch of bullets. If the variation you see at 22 cal datum is larger than the variation you originally measured at the full caliber ogive, then the nose shape variability is probably causing your seating depth variability.
If not, keep searching, but my guess is that you'll find your answer there. To confirm further, do this:
Second, divide the test batch into two batches 1) the ones that are m/l the same at 22 cal and the ones that are different. Seat those in YOUR dies on YOUR press. If Batch 1 shows variation in expressed seating depth, then you have a problem with your press setup. If limited variation exists with batch 1, then measure expressed seating depth on batch 2. If you get this far you've eliminated dies/press setup as the source of variation. My guess is that you'll see some pretty extreme variation when you measure expressed seating depth as you have selected bullets from the extreme ends of the size/shape distribution. This will confirm whether the seating depth variation is caused by nose shape of the bullets (at least mostly so).
Elkbane
From reading over your subsequent posts, I'm even MORE convinced that the expressed seating depth variation is due to variation in the NOSE profile of your 178g bullets. You really want to try and solve this mystery? Try this to separate the potential sources of variation in a step-wise fashion:
Take out 10 bullets at random. With your 30 cal insert in the comparator, set aside the ones with the LEAST variation in bearing length (this takes bearing length of the bullets themselves out of the equation and isolates cause of variation on other factors). IN other words, keep testing on the bullets with m/l the same bearing length, base to ogive.
Put a 22 cal insert into your comparator (the size is closer to the ID of your seating stem). Measure the bearing length matched batch of bullets. If the variation you see at 22 cal datum is larger than the variation you originally measured at the full caliber ogive, then the nose shape variability is probably causing your seating depth variability.
If not, keep searching, but my guess is that you'll find your answer there. To confirm further, do this:
Second, divide the test batch into two batches 1) the ones that are m/l the same at 22 cal and the ones that are different. Seat those in YOUR dies on YOUR press. If Batch 1 shows variation in expressed seating depth, then you have a problem with your press setup. If limited variation exists with batch 1, then measure expressed seating depth on batch 2. If you get this far you've eliminated dies/press setup as the source of variation. My guess is that you'll see some pretty extreme variation when you measure expressed seating depth as you have selected bullets from the extreme ends of the size/shape distribution. This will confirm whether the seating depth variation is caused by nose shape of the bullets (at least mostly so).
Elkbane
jlow: primer pockets have now been uniformed. So when I get the die back I can test with my fully prepped cases
Elkbane- I will try this and see what I get
**By the way Forster just came out with a tool to measure Ogive length of seated bullets and the headspace of fired cases. Looks pretty neat and simple to use**
Elkbane- I will try this and see what I get
**By the way Forster just came out with a tool to measure Ogive length of seated bullets and the headspace of fired cases. Looks pretty neat and simple to use**
This is one of the main reasons to uniform the primer pocket. Having the primers proud of the pocket will give you bad number when you measure OAL via even the ogive. After you uniform the pocket and seated a primer, the most sensative measure of whether the primer is seated lower than the surface (what you want) is to run your finger along the bottom where the primer is, it will be instantly obviouse whether things are OK.
primers are definately below flush now. I will take a pic or two when I get a chance today. Before primers sat about flush now appear slightly below flush. Obvious difference in the two
That sound good so perhaps something good came out of your problem.
It’s hard to say if this is your problem since we don’t know how proud if any your primers were seating previously but having them below flush is regardless what you want.
This could be the reason why the Forster tech cannot find a problem (if the brass you send were not primed) and you were not seeing problems if you seat bullets in randomly picked (not prepped) 223 cases. This would be a good example of “situation specific†problem. When one trouble shoots and skips steps that does not appear to be important, it can make troubleshooting difficult.
It’s hard to say if this is your problem since we don’t know how proud if any your primers were seating previously but having them below flush is regardless what you want.
This could be the reason why the Forster tech cannot find a problem (if the brass you send were not primed) and you were not seeing problems if you seat bullets in randomly picked (not prepped) 223 cases. This would be a good example of “situation specific†problem. When one trouble shoots and skips steps that does not appear to be important, it can make troubleshooting difficult.
That's what I enjoy about this forum. People can help problem solve. I thought I was removing all the variables that could be causing but then more things to check are suggested that I hadn't thought of
Not sure if you can tell the difference in primer seating depth but one was not uniformed(one on the left) and the other is(one on the right)
Not sure if you can tell the difference in primer seating depth but one was not uniformed(one on the left) and the other is(one on the right)
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