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Seating depth…what does it do?

I have only been reloading for about a year now but I shoot a lot--223 bolt gun only--I quickly dialed in on a couple of combos 53g Vmax with N133--I am shooting a Savage BVSS with 26 pipe
It just does not seem to respond to seating depth--I started out with book specified ( magazine length I guess) It shoots lights out--I burned a lot of powder and primer starting near jam and working backwards--no improvements--I guess this has to do with the way my factory barrel is throated? I have not seen the magic folks talk about --also went through this with 69g SMK with similar results It just don't care and seems to do fine with a std length
 
I have only been reloading for about a year now but I shoot a lot--223 bolt gun only--I quickly dialed in on a couple of combos 53g Vmax with N133--I am shooting a Savage BVSS with 26 pipe
It just does not seem to respond to seating depth--I started out with book specified ( magazine length I guess) It shoots lights out--I burned a lot of powder and primer starting near jam and working backwards--no improvements--I guess this has to do with the way my factory barrel is throated? I have not seen the magic folks talk about --also went through this with 69g SMK with similar results It just don't care and seems to do fine with a std length
There is a guy on U-tube @ Panhandle Precision (Sam Millard) and he talks about seating depth in several of his videos and claims that he sees no difference in seating depth as long as all the loads in a certain batch are seated at the same depth. BUT, in some of his other videos he leans towards it mattering without actually saying it. I personally have seen wider windows @ .006 to .009 (nodes) with some rifles and loads than others but I have also seen rifles and loads that .003 would make a huge difference in the group size.

Not to point out any particular shooter neither here nor abroad but in some cases I have seen the issue to be in the shooter or in their bench, set-up, or accuracy of the rifle simply not allowing them to shoot the difference. There is a saying and it seems to follow true that if one cannot hold 1/4 min. they certainly cannot shoot 1/4 min.
 
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003 would make a huge difference in the group size.
This applies well to my 308 however the seating node in my 284 Shehane is a mile wide.
It shoots small irregardless...it seems to a point. When I first started out I used to find this aggravating when trying to find the optimum seating depth for the Shehane...now I just dont worry much about it...That barrel just shoots small. ( disclaimer : there not all like that )
 
Noted Bill-- My loads and rifle will shoot .400-.500 and repeat at 100 yds--I have been able to keep this in different months, different temps etc all pretty darn close--I do use a chrono during work up--and have quality dies, seater, etc and am very careful and observant --I built race engines for a living and can measure better than most--but..I am 65 and have all the issues that come with that for sure but....I have taken the good load I have and run that bullet at all kinds of lengths and it has shown no better than a std mag length load
I am guessing it may be my factory barrel chambering and throat It does not worry me at all--In fact I have the luxury --I can quit chasing that "dream" length on this rifle anyway
If I change bullets I will try again knowing how different shapes may change that
Thanks
 
I have only been reloading for about a year now but I shoot a lot--223 bolt gun only--I quickly dialed in on a couple of combos 53g Vmax with N133--I am shooting a Savage BVSS with 26 pipe
It just does not seem to respond to seating depth--I started out with book specified ( magazine length I guess) It shoots lights out--I burned a lot of powder and primer starting near jam and working backwards--no improvements--I guess this has to do with the way my factory barrel is throated? I have not seen the magic folks talk about --also went through this with 69g SMK with similar results It just don't care and seems to do fine with a std length
When you say near jam, what do you mean....exactly?
 
Noted Bill-- My loads and rifle will shoot .400-.500 and repeat at 100 yds--I have been able to keep this in different months, different temps etc all pretty darn close--I do use a chrono during work up--and have quality dies, seater, etc and am very careful and observant --I built race engines for a living and can measure better than most--but..I am 65 and have all the issues that come with that for sure but....I have taken the good load I have and run that bullet at all kinds of lengths and it has shown no better than a std mag length load
I am guessing it may be my factory barrel chambering and throat It does not worry me at all--In fact I have the luxury --I can quit chasing that "dream" length on this rifle anyway
If I change bullets I will try again knowing how different shapes may change that
Thanks
I would guess the factory barrel has a lot to do with what you are seeing. I totally understand the 65 thing and all those "issues that come with it" as I've been around the sun 67 times as well. Spent a lot of time racing in my earlier years so I did some engine work back in the day too and learned about measuring accurately. If you do change bullets let us know if the seating depth issue changes at all.
 
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With bullets sorted base to ogive, I shot a target with bullets .005
off the lands and worked on powder charges. I settled on one group
that was a 1/3rd moa clover leaf. Repeated with 5 rounds to confirm.
Same charge, I loaded 4 touching. and the group size was smaller but
not by much. Bypassing the .003" into the lands, I loaded 4 at .006"
into the lands, and the group produced in the low 2's. Sent Jeff Gates
a pic of the target, and he suggested going in deeper. Now here's the
rub.....I'm using a light neck tension, and going deeper is really just
pushing the bullet back into the case, and not really deeper into the
lands. So at this point I may go much heavier on the tension and redo
the test over the winter.

So with that said.....What is the consensus on neck tensions for bench
accuracy, or is it a per gun abstract ??
Different powders "like" different amounts of neck tension. What powder were you shooting? What caliber?
 
Different powders "like" different amounts of neck tension. What powder were you shooting? What caliber?
I don't follow the norm.....LOL This was my 284-ELF wild cat. Basically the
284 Winchester shortened to just a hair longer then a Dasher. The powder
is an off the wall and no longer produced "Data 4065". It was a Royal Scot
powder that was bought out and sold off by Accurate many moons ago. It's
burn range is near R-15 and Varget. I have an 8lb jug of it.....Before I do any
more targets, I plan on tightening things up.
 
When working up a load I start with a seating depth that has given good results in the past, test for powder charge and then when I have that go back and look at small changes in seating depth. IMO there is a lot of noise on the internet regarding working up loads, that makes people think that it has to be a lot more complicated than it has to be.
How do you do it with seating depth first ?
 
To me it depends on the rifle and what format I'm using it for. Mid range F class using Vld style bullets I found my powder node first then started at jam and went back. Lot of those style bullets like to jump and some alot. In my ppc once powder node is found I do the same start at jam and work back. Most my bullets will shoot within a few thousands of jam in that rifle. Precision shooting is a dance, sometimes you lead sometimes you follow.
 
How do you do it with seating depth first ?
There are different ways to do this. The fact that these methods can and do work to me is additional evidence to support a mechanism of seating depth optimization that is bullet-specific, rather than charge weight/pressure/velocity-specific. One example would be to select a slightly reduced charge weight (for safety reasons), and carry out a coarse increment seating depth test over a reasonably wide range, let's say in something like .005" seating depth increments. Once you find the seating depth region or window where a specific bullet appears to group the best, you can then pick a seating depth somewhere about in the middle of that region and start in with charge weight testing. I occasionally do this with a new-to-me bullet for which I have no idea where it might want to tune in with respect to seating depth. Once an optimal charge weight has been identified, one can then go back and cover a narrower range of seating depth in finer increments. Of course, there are many variations on this theme, but the general idea is that the initial seating depth optimum that is found will not change dramatically, even if the charge weight/velocity/pressure are changed noticeably during the charge weight test phase. Even if it does change, one can usually find the new optimum during the fine increment testing without much trouble.

I have observed on numerous occasions that even when I found it necessary to change the charge weight markedly in the final load from that which was used during the preliminary coarse seating depth test, the seating depth optimum in the final fine increment testing didn't change much, if at all, from that identified in the initially, even though the velocity had changed significantly. I have observed this phenomena on many occasions with jumped bullets. It may also occur with bullets seated into the rifling, but I almost never find it necessary to seat the bullets I use regularly into the rifling, so I don't. Of course, it is always possible that the same bullet, with two different charge weights, each having markedly different velocities, was still exiting the bore at the same point in the barrel harmonic cycle, and therefore exhibited the same seating depth optima. I think the odds of this happening so many time in loads with the same bullet but different velocities makes this a remote possibility. Not zero, but remote. That is one of the things about seating depth that makes me believe it is less about barrel harmonics than something else. Attempting to more precisely determine answers to such a question probably requires specialized equipment that I don't have.

The bottom line with optimal seating depth is that it is not difficult to determine empirically. We can simply do a seating depth test to determine what is optimal. Nonetheless, I would like to know exactly what we're actually doing when we optimize seating depth. I'm sure many reloaders fall into the same category. We want to know exactly what is happening with every single thing we do. I believe having this information would be of benefit in the load development process. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer, so I do seating depth optimization as needed. Even though we want to know the answers, sometimes we have to settle for doing what works, even if we don't understand exactly how it works.,
 
How do you do it with seating depth first ?
Over the years I have found that a little ways into the rifling is a good starting point. For instance, when I am helping a new PPC quickly come to a decent load with 133 I tell him to adjust his seater so that the rifling marks on the bullet are half as long as wide or shorter, and then leave the seater alone and work with testing powder charges. These days, given some new data, I would have him then load up two or three shot tests on .3gr. intervals running from 27.5 to 29. Shooting over at least a couple of flags, at 100 yards, taking care that within each test group that the flags were the same from shot to shot. Invariably I am able to guide them to a node this way and once they have shot something small, they can explore from there with more confidence in their equipment and their own skills. For myself, for a new rifle I would probably start from .006 to .010 into the rifling, and then do my powder test from lower than I plan on, to when I feel more bolt lift than I like. Over the years this has worked pretty well.
 
Like most things reloading, the answers you get will all be based on conjecture, with some generational myths and lore sprinkled in.
 
Like most things reloading, the answers you get will all be based on conjecture, with some generational myths and lore sprinkled in.
I disagree.
seating depth changes and how the affect performance in an extreme accuracy Rifle such as we are shooting in Short Range Benchrest are not conjecture at all. You can see it on the target.
My 30BR is very sensitive to seating depth. .010 inch one way or another is the difference in it being a Rifle that shoots “ones” and a Rifle that shoots “threes”.

In post #8 in this thread, the poster stated that heavy barrels were inherently accurate and might not respond to tuning. I shoot 1.450 diameter barrels on my 6PPC Rail Gun and it is just as sensitive to seating depth changes as my LV 6PPC.
 
This has been a great discussion. I always enjoy hearing from @Ned Ludd and @dmoran as they both freely share great stuff. I need to watch Donovan’s video again as that was a completely new angle of analysis for me—more to study.

Like most of you, I do the testing and see what works, but it would be great to have a deeper understanding of what exactly seating depth does in the entire process.

A few comments suggested seating depth was a control element related to gas escaping ahead of the bullet before it fully engaged with the lands. Could this suggest leaning towards jamming the bullets? Could this also lead towards chasing the lands over a barrel’s life to keep said distance the same?

Another comment suggested barrel exit time vs. speed. Is this analogous to handicapping a drag car a bit of time to reach the muzzle at the same time? Seat deeper to adjust for the faster bullet.

Another comment mentioned the peak and shape of the pressure curve. Would adjusting neck tension address, add to, or complicate this?

If you have read OBT, what about this “traveling stress wave” theory? How does it relate/not relate to this conversation?

Let’s keep the conversation going.

David
 
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