Scope help
- Thread starter DanK
- Start date
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
IMHO for any competition or precision shooting, the primary requirement in a scope is that it will hold POA,point of aim).
To help the discussion, here is a simplified telescopic sight optical layout:
As shown this is fixed power scope. It does not matter if the reticule is at the 1st focal plane or 2nd focal plane in a fixed power scope. POA hold will be dependent only on the mechanics of holding and/or returning the erector tube to its set POA.
A variable power scope will employ a zoom mechanism usually replacing the rear erector lens with a mechanism similar to the one shown below:
Note that the quality of the zoom system employed will determine how close it is to being Parfocal,maintains focus at at all zoom settings). If the reticule is at the 2nd focal plane, any error in focus with zoom setting will introduce the potential for parallax error at that setting. Also, since there are several lens elements located by cams all of which require some clearance to move, there is further potential for POA shift between shots. Therefore in a variable it would be better to use a 1st focal plane reticule location to improve the probability for holding POA.
The reticule will magnified along with the target in a variable power scope using a 1st focal plane reticule. Therefore it is usually best to select a reticule that has very fine cross hairs and/or very small dot at least at the center for precise aiming.
To help the discussion, here is a simplified telescopic sight optical layout:
As shown this is fixed power scope. It does not matter if the reticule is at the 1st focal plane or 2nd focal plane in a fixed power scope. POA hold will be dependent only on the mechanics of holding and/or returning the erector tube to its set POA.
A variable power scope will employ a zoom mechanism usually replacing the rear erector lens with a mechanism similar to the one shown below:
Note that the quality of the zoom system employed will determine how close it is to being Parfocal,maintains focus at at all zoom settings). If the reticule is at the 2nd focal plane, any error in focus with zoom setting will introduce the potential for parallax error at that setting. Also, since there are several lens elements located by cams all of which require some clearance to move, there is further potential for POA shift between shots. Therefore in a variable it would be better to use a 1st focal plane reticule location to improve the probability for holding POA.
The reticule will magnified along with the target in a variable power scope using a 1st focal plane reticule. Therefore it is usually best to select a reticule that has very fine cross hairs and/or very small dot at least at the center for precise aiming.
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Most interesting... I think I am more confused now. If the 1st plane is better for a no poa shift, why dont people use them more. I would think that most people would want a no poa retical.
I also dont understand about paralex. I have read just about everything about paralex and I still dont know what it means. The only thing I get out of understanding paralex is that the image is unclear and thats why you adjust the front bell for focus.
It all seems fustrating when you dont understand what there talking about.
I also dont understand about paralex. I have read just about everything about paralex and I still dont know what it means. The only thing I get out of understanding paralex is that the image is unclear and thats why you adjust the front bell for focus.
It all seems fustrating when you dont understand what there talking about.
With a scoped rifle setting firmly on rest/sandbags and the reticle aimed at some target of sorts, while looking through scope move your head side to side....... the reticle may appear to move inrelation to the target....this movement will display any parallax present. Try this with target at various ranges.....depending where the scopes parallax is set...it will move various amounts.
In a handgun scope I can see it. But with a rifle scope its hard for me to see it. Besides all the scopes that I am aware of, they set the paralex free at 50 or 100 yards and no more.
So that brings up another question.. If scope manufactures can only set paralex free to 50 or 100 yards. Then what does it really matter, if thats all they can do. That just means if you get a scope that is paralex free for 100 yards then you will see paralex at 200 or 300 Right?
So that brings up another question.. If scope manufactures can only set paralex free to 50 or 100 yards. Then what does it really matter, if thats all they can do. That just means if you get a scope that is paralex free for 100 yards then you will see paralex at 200 or 300 Right?
Not sure what the range is for most scopes to be parallax free, but if your at all concerned about accuracy....it IS a big deal...you want to shoot tiny dots ...right?
Here is what I do, even when shooting BR matches with a parallax adjustable scope......I set my eye 6 to 8 inches away from the eyepiece, I shoot free recoil in VFS anyway) a black ring now exists with my objective, the target and field of view) in the middle......I simply move my eye to center the target in the black ring......I now have eliminated parallax......and a cut eyebrow if using those Ultra Mags.
This works for me when sighting in hunting rifles which have no parallax adjustment.
If I remember correctly, I would say my crosshairs move,relative to the aiming point) as much as a half inch at 100 yards...... with the scopes parallax setting at 200 yards.This is with 40x scope....with more magnification it's easier to detect.
Here is what I do, even when shooting BR matches with a parallax adjustable scope......I set my eye 6 to 8 inches away from the eyepiece, I shoot free recoil in VFS anyway) a black ring now exists with my objective, the target and field of view) in the middle......I simply move my eye to center the target in the black ring......I now have eliminated parallax......and a cut eyebrow if using those Ultra Mags.
This works for me when sighting in hunting rifles which have no parallax adjustment.
If I remember correctly, I would say my crosshairs move,relative to the aiming point) as much as a half inch at 100 yards...... with the scopes parallax setting at 200 yards.This is with 40x scope....with more magnification it's easier to detect.
Is that the way most people use there scopes? I have always had a great field of view without the black ring. So buy obtaining the black ring buy moving a little farther back I will eliminate parallax right?
My Friend was shooting like that when I was helping him with his scope adjustments. I told him not to do that because you are using up your field of view.
I asked him, who showed you how to shoot a scope that way, and he told me he didn't remember, and that's the way he was told to use it all the time.
I guess I have to tell him he was right about that, and I was wrong. I really didn't know that was the way people shot with a scope
Now that I think about it.. its just like a peep on a bow. You look through the peep, and then you align your scope diameter with the inside of the peep diameter. Makes sense to me.
My Friend was shooting like that when I was helping him with his scope adjustments. I told him not to do that because you are using up your field of view.
I asked him, who showed you how to shoot a scope that way, and he told me he didn't remember, and that's the way he was told to use it all the time.
I guess I have to tell him he was right about that, and I was wrong. I really didn't know that was the way people shot with a scope
Now that I think about it.. its just like a peep on a bow. You look through the peep, and then you align your scope diameter with the inside of the peep diameter. Makes sense to me.
That is certainly not the way I use my scopes. In the high magnification scopes, the eye relief is very small so you have to hold your head steady and the eye has got to be on the scope axis. That will reduce or near eliminate any parallax issue. My scopes also have either adjustable objectives,the higher magnification scopes,) or side focus,the lower mag scopes.) That allows me to simply not worry about parallax when everything is set right.
In non-adjustable scopes, parallax becomes an issue if you can't keep you head from moving around. If you are holding the rifle the same way every time, parallax will not be an issue.
In non-adjustable scopes, parallax becomes an issue if you can't keep you head from moving around. If you are holding the rifle the same way every time, parallax will not be an issue.
I was strictly talking about shooting off the bench ...where accuracy is all-important..,esp. in BR where .001 MATTERS at the target)....my goal is to get all 5 shots in one hole...that hole being the bullet diameter,in the case of group shooting)
Also note that the parallax markings on most scopes are off the mark....you have to verify the true 'no parallax' setting.
It is very difficult to learn to hold the rifle exactly the same for each shot in a bench rest set-up, let alone off-hand......Again the goal here is extreme accuracy.
I believe you are confusing parallax with focus ....i.e. 'side focus'?..... Parallax adjustments are either fixed internally at the factory, incorporated on the front objective, or located on the side of the scope in a third turret.
Dan K is interested in getting the most accuracy out of his new build, and I was simply advising him how to best achieve his goal.....whether his scope has an adjustable parallax or not.
Also note that the parallax markings on most scopes are off the mark....you have to verify the true 'no parallax' setting.
It is very difficult to learn to hold the rifle exactly the same for each shot in a bench rest set-up, let alone off-hand......Again the goal here is extreme accuracy.
I believe you are confusing parallax with focus ....i.e. 'side focus'?..... Parallax adjustments are either fixed internally at the factory, incorporated on the front objective, or located on the side of the scope in a third turret.
Dan K is interested in getting the most accuracy out of his new build, and I was simply advising him how to best achieve his goal.....whether his scope has an adjustable parallax or not.
As with most everything in shooting, it all depends on your application. I was answering DanK's direct question 'Is that the way most people use their scopes?'
I can certainly see why you use a scope the way you do and I agree that is is difficult, at first, to hold the rifle exactly the same for each shot. But it needs to be done if one wants to become competitive in highpower or F-class competition. I know nothing about benchrest competition but I would think repeatability is pretty important there also.
As for adjusting the scope, again, I agree. The markings are more of a suggestion than a guide on many scopes. However, I will point you to this article that discusses the methods of adjusting the parallax. It's from a site that has pretty good information about shooting.
http://www.6mmbr.com/parallax.html
I can certainly see why you use a scope the way you do and I agree that is is difficult, at first, to hold the rifle exactly the same for each shot. But it needs to be done if one wants to become competitive in highpower or F-class competition. I know nothing about benchrest competition but I would think repeatability is pretty important there also.
As for adjusting the scope, again, I agree. The markings are more of a suggestion than a guide on many scopes. However, I will point you to this article that discusses the methods of adjusting the parallax. It's from a site that has pretty good information about shooting.
http://www.6mmbr.com/parallax.html
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
Let us back up a bit and more fully define parallax as it applies to telescopic sights. The following is,as best as I remember) from a Wikipedia article:
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'Parallax problems result from the image from the objective not being coincident with the reticle. If the image is not coplanar with the reticle,that is the image of the objective is either in front of or behind the reticle), then putting your eye at different points behind the ocular causes the reticle crosshairs to appear to be at different points on the target. This optical effect causes parallax induced aiming errors that can make a telescopic sight user miss a small target at a distance for which the telescopic sight was not parallax adjusted.
To eliminate parallax induced aiming errors, telescopic sights can be equipped with a parallax compensation mechanism which basically consists of a movable optical element that enables the optical system to project the picture of objects at varying distances and the reticle crosshairs pictures together in exactly the same optical plane. There are two main methods to achieve this.
• By making the objective lens of the telescopic sight adjustable so the telescopic sight can compensate parallax errors. These models are often called AO or A/O models, for adjustable objective.
• By making an internal lens in the internal optical groups mounted somewhere in front of the reticle plane adjustable so the telescopic sight can compensate parallax errors. This method is technically more complicated to build, but generally more liked by parallax adjustable telescopic sight users—unlike AO models, which are read from the top, the sidewheel's setting can be read with minimal movement of the head. These models are often called side focus or sidewheel models.
Most telescopic sights lack parallax compensation because they can perform very acceptably without this refinement. Telescopic sights manufacturers adjust these scopes at a distance that best suits their intended usage. Typical standard factory parallax adjustment distances for hunting telescopic sights are 100 yd/m to make them suited for hunting shots that rarely exceed 300 yd/m. Some target and military style telescopic sights without parallax compensation may be adjusted to be parallax free at ranges up to 300 yd/m to make them better suited for aiming at longer ranges. Scopes for rimfires, shotguns, and muzzleloaders will have shorter parallax settings, commonly 50 yd/m for rimfire scopes and 100 yd/m for shotguns and muzzleloaders. Scopes for airguns are very often found with adjustable parallax, usually in the form of an adjustable objective, or AO. These may adjust down as far as 3 yards,2.74 m).
The reason why scopes intended for short range use are often equipped with parallax compensation is that at short range,and at high magnification) parallax errors become more noticeable. A typical scope objective has a focal length of 100 mm. An optical ideal 10x scope in this example has been perfectly parallax corrected at 1000 m and functions flawlessly at that distance. If the same scope is used at 100 m the target-picture would be projected,1000 m / 100 m) / 100 mm = 0.1 mm behind the reticle plain. At 10x magnification the error would be 10 * 0.1 mm = 1 mm at the ocular. If the same scope was used at 10 m the target-picture would be,1000 m / 10 m) / 100 mm = 1 mm projected behind the reticle plain. When 10x magnified the error would be 10 mm at the ocular.'
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The one thing that is hard to quantify is the potential aiming error due to parallax error. The magnitude of the angular error in the scope is primarily due to the axial difference between the image plane and the plane of the reticle. However the apparent error or change in POI relative to POA is due to the alignment of the shooters eye with the optical axis of the objective image and reticle center. For example, I have a scope with AO that I've tested, with the objective set for infinity the maximum parallax aiming error at 100 yards is a 2 MOA circle about the target POA,the locus/path of the cross hair center) as the eye is moved around.
There is a popular assumption that if the eye is perfectly centered on the exit pupil image there will not be a 'parallax' error. This is not correct. If the parallax is set for the wrong range, the parallax error still exists in the scope. The potential for an aiming error is still dependent on the eye position. The aiming error will be zero only if the eye position used to zero the scope is the same as that used for each shot on the target.
If you have a fixed power scope with either AO or side parallax adjusters, readjust for zero parallax,not for target focus) at each change of range. If you have a variable power scope with the zoom cell between the objective and the reticle,typical with '2nd focal plane' reticle variables in US) you should also readjust for zero parallax with changes in power.
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'Parallax problems result from the image from the objective not being coincident with the reticle. If the image is not coplanar with the reticle,that is the image of the objective is either in front of or behind the reticle), then putting your eye at different points behind the ocular causes the reticle crosshairs to appear to be at different points on the target. This optical effect causes parallax induced aiming errors that can make a telescopic sight user miss a small target at a distance for which the telescopic sight was not parallax adjusted.
To eliminate parallax induced aiming errors, telescopic sights can be equipped with a parallax compensation mechanism which basically consists of a movable optical element that enables the optical system to project the picture of objects at varying distances and the reticle crosshairs pictures together in exactly the same optical plane. There are two main methods to achieve this.
• By making the objective lens of the telescopic sight adjustable so the telescopic sight can compensate parallax errors. These models are often called AO or A/O models, for adjustable objective.
• By making an internal lens in the internal optical groups mounted somewhere in front of the reticle plane adjustable so the telescopic sight can compensate parallax errors. This method is technically more complicated to build, but generally more liked by parallax adjustable telescopic sight users—unlike AO models, which are read from the top, the sidewheel's setting can be read with minimal movement of the head. These models are often called side focus or sidewheel models.
Most telescopic sights lack parallax compensation because they can perform very acceptably without this refinement. Telescopic sights manufacturers adjust these scopes at a distance that best suits their intended usage. Typical standard factory parallax adjustment distances for hunting telescopic sights are 100 yd/m to make them suited for hunting shots that rarely exceed 300 yd/m. Some target and military style telescopic sights without parallax compensation may be adjusted to be parallax free at ranges up to 300 yd/m to make them better suited for aiming at longer ranges. Scopes for rimfires, shotguns, and muzzleloaders will have shorter parallax settings, commonly 50 yd/m for rimfire scopes and 100 yd/m for shotguns and muzzleloaders. Scopes for airguns are very often found with adjustable parallax, usually in the form of an adjustable objective, or AO. These may adjust down as far as 3 yards,2.74 m).
The reason why scopes intended for short range use are often equipped with parallax compensation is that at short range,and at high magnification) parallax errors become more noticeable. A typical scope objective has a focal length of 100 mm. An optical ideal 10x scope in this example has been perfectly parallax corrected at 1000 m and functions flawlessly at that distance. If the same scope is used at 100 m the target-picture would be projected,1000 m / 100 m) / 100 mm = 0.1 mm behind the reticle plain. At 10x magnification the error would be 10 * 0.1 mm = 1 mm at the ocular. If the same scope was used at 10 m the target-picture would be,1000 m / 10 m) / 100 mm = 1 mm projected behind the reticle plain. When 10x magnified the error would be 10 mm at the ocular.'
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The one thing that is hard to quantify is the potential aiming error due to parallax error. The magnitude of the angular error in the scope is primarily due to the axial difference between the image plane and the plane of the reticle. However the apparent error or change in POI relative to POA is due to the alignment of the shooters eye with the optical axis of the objective image and reticle center. For example, I have a scope with AO that I've tested, with the objective set for infinity the maximum parallax aiming error at 100 yards is a 2 MOA circle about the target POA,the locus/path of the cross hair center) as the eye is moved around.
There is a popular assumption that if the eye is perfectly centered on the exit pupil image there will not be a 'parallax' error. This is not correct. If the parallax is set for the wrong range, the parallax error still exists in the scope. The potential for an aiming error is still dependent on the eye position. The aiming error will be zero only if the eye position used to zero the scope is the same as that used for each shot on the target.
If you have a fixed power scope with either AO or side parallax adjusters, readjust for zero parallax,not for target focus) at each change of range. If you have a variable power scope with the zoom cell between the objective and the reticle,typical with '2nd focal plane' reticle variables in US) you should also readjust for zero parallax with changes in power.
So, for high magnification scopes at shorter distances,100-200 yards) parallax is an issue but can be adjusted in some scopes.
For longer distances,300 yards and beyond,) parallax becomes increasingly less of an issue, perhaps in an inverse proportion progression. ,This would certainly explain why AO scopes have a seemingly logarithmic progression in their adjustment range.)
Finally, eye position may not cure the issue, but the same eye position at every shot will produce the same error which, can be adjusted for.
Do I have it right?
For longer distances,300 yards and beyond,) parallax becomes increasingly less of an issue, perhaps in an inverse proportion progression. ,This would certainly explain why AO scopes have a seemingly logarithmic progression in their adjustment range.)
Finally, eye position may not cure the issue, but the same eye position at every shot will produce the same error which, can be adjusted for.
Do I have it right?
Thank you for your expertise.
Can you confirm that the method I use to minimize parallax in a factory set parallax scope,i.e. centering FOV in scope tube while holding eye several inches from eyepiece is viable ?
Also, that half inch of movement I noticed in my 40x scope, doesn't necessarily translate into a half inch POI change? Correct?
Side to side/ up and down eye position is the culprit, and not front-to-back eye position?
Can you confirm that the method I use to minimize parallax in a factory set parallax scope,i.e. centering FOV in scope tube while holding eye several inches from eyepiece is viable ?
Also, that half inch of movement I noticed in my 40x scope, doesn't necessarily translate into a half inch POI change? Correct?
Side to side/ up and down eye position is the culprit, and not front-to-back eye position?
FredBohl..
I have a Burris 3x12 with adjustable parallax. So Let me see if I understand this. When I am shooting at the bench at 100yards, I could adjust the power to 12x, and then I dial the front objective to where is says 100yards, and be free of parallax.Right?
If I am right, then let try this to see if I am understanding it.
OK, if I set my scopes front objective to where it says 100yards and shoot at a target, lets say 30 yards, I would then have parallax, and it would not be corrected. Right? It would only be corrected if I put the front objective on 30 yards regardless of magnification. I'm I getting all this right?
I can see LHSMITH point. When he puts a little black around the edges of the scope he is making sure his head is in the same spot all the time. Like a peep on a bow since the reticule is in the front, making sure he is doing the same thing all the time relative to his reticule.
I have a Burris 3x12 with adjustable parallax. So Let me see if I understand this. When I am shooting at the bench at 100yards, I could adjust the power to 12x, and then I dial the front objective to where is says 100yards, and be free of parallax.Right?
If I am right, then let try this to see if I am understanding it.
OK, if I set my scopes front objective to where it says 100yards and shoot at a target, lets say 30 yards, I would then have parallax, and it would not be corrected. Right? It would only be corrected if I put the front objective on 30 yards regardless of magnification. I'm I getting all this right?
I can see LHSMITH point. When he puts a little black around the edges of the scope he is making sure his head is in the same spot all the time. Like a peep on a bow since the reticule is in the front, making sure he is doing the same thing all the time relative to his reticule.
Again, Don't take your PA markings as gospel.....they are almost always wrong...even in $1000 scopes.
With your rifle in bags...and not touching it....scope cranked to highest power... move your head side to side while at the various PA index marks......when there is NO horizontal retical movement -you are now parallax free at whatever distance your target is.......record the True settings for various distances.
This excercize is not necessary when hunting big game at ranges up to 400 yds or so......It IS necessary to consistantly hit the top of groundhog's head at 250 yards or so.
With your rifle in bags...and not touching it....scope cranked to highest power... move your head side to side while at the various PA index marks......when there is NO horizontal retical movement -you are now parallax free at whatever distance your target is.......record the True settings for various distances.
This excercize is not necessary when hunting big game at ranges up to 400 yds or so......It IS necessary to consistantly hit the top of groundhog's head at 250 yards or so.
Understood... I always wondered why it did that on my handgun scope but not so much on a rifle scope. I bet if I try this method with my handgun 357max 15inch barrel at the range when the weather breaks. I bet I will get better groups than 1.5 at 100 yards.
I am sure glad you people set me strait on this scope issue.. Now I know what parallax is for sure.
I'll tell ya somthing funny.. I acually thought that paralax was the little ghost ring that you were discribing.
I am sure glad you people set me strait on this scope issue.. Now I know what parallax is for sure.
I'll tell ya somthing funny.. I acually thought that paralax was the little ghost ring that you were discribing.
Fred Bohl
Gold $$ Contributor
FTRshooter,
You are very close to 'right'.
Without going into too much detail, that progression you see for parallax adjustments is a power of two progression. For our purposes the amount of displacement of the image focal plane doubles each time the range is halved. Thus the error gets bigger at shorter ranges faster than at longer ranges.
If a scope with fixed parallax adjustment was set for zero error at 200 yards, then the parallax error would be on opposite sides of the set plane but equal size at 300 or 100 yards and also equal but twice that size at 400 or 50 yards.
If you use the same eye position for both zero adjust and shooting at a particular range then you will have adjusted for any parallax error at that range. However, if you keep the same eye position and change range only, there will be some parallax error.
LHSMITH,
You are correct that side to side or up and down not front to back eye motion is the culprit in POA error due to parallax. The actual POA error depends on how far off axis your eye actually is and the half inch at 100 yards you reported is probably the maximum POA error possible due to parallax for that scope.
As to your other question, I cannot confirm if it is viable for normal visual use. However, I put a non-adjustable parallax scope in an optical bench test jig and used a digital imager camera on a xyz adjustable mount. I backed the camera out to give a view as you described then adjusted the camera to center the exit pupil in 'black ring' as best as possible. I proceeded to advance the camera toward the eyepiece until I obtained the normal full frame image at the normal eye relief location. The resulting image was very well aligned with both the reference target image and the scope cross hairs. This would suggest to me that your method would achieve eye alignment but at the backed off position I would think that the reduced image size would lead to more potential aiming error than would the parallax error.
DanK,
You have the basic understanding correct but to be fully free of parallax error you have to adjust for zero parallax,no visible movement of the cross hair relative to the target with small eye movements left/right or up/down) after any change of power or range. As LHSMITH reminded us, the markings on the scope parallax scales are not perfect.
On some of my AO scopes I've made my own marks,re-calibrated) for tested ranges to get closer faster
You are very close to 'right'.
Without going into too much detail, that progression you see for parallax adjustments is a power of two progression. For our purposes the amount of displacement of the image focal plane doubles each time the range is halved. Thus the error gets bigger at shorter ranges faster than at longer ranges.
If a scope with fixed parallax adjustment was set for zero error at 200 yards, then the parallax error would be on opposite sides of the set plane but equal size at 300 or 100 yards and also equal but twice that size at 400 or 50 yards.
If you use the same eye position for both zero adjust and shooting at a particular range then you will have adjusted for any parallax error at that range. However, if you keep the same eye position and change range only, there will be some parallax error.
LHSMITH,
You are correct that side to side or up and down not front to back eye motion is the culprit in POA error due to parallax. The actual POA error depends on how far off axis your eye actually is and the half inch at 100 yards you reported is probably the maximum POA error possible due to parallax for that scope.
As to your other question, I cannot confirm if it is viable for normal visual use. However, I put a non-adjustable parallax scope in an optical bench test jig and used a digital imager camera on a xyz adjustable mount. I backed the camera out to give a view as you described then adjusted the camera to center the exit pupil in 'black ring' as best as possible. I proceeded to advance the camera toward the eyepiece until I obtained the normal full frame image at the normal eye relief location. The resulting image was very well aligned with both the reference target image and the scope cross hairs. This would suggest to me that your method would achieve eye alignment but at the backed off position I would think that the reduced image size would lead to more potential aiming error than would the parallax error.
DanK,
You have the basic understanding correct but to be fully free of parallax error you have to adjust for zero parallax,no visible movement of the cross hair relative to the target with small eye movements left/right or up/down) after any change of power or range. As LHSMITH reminded us, the markings on the scope parallax scales are not perfect.
On some of my AO scopes I've made my own marks,re-calibrated) for tested ranges to get closer faster
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