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Scope Check

I would love to know just how many barrels have been ruined by over aggressive cleaning that was the result of shooters buying bore scopes. A friend, who had become obsessed with his bore scope and concentricity gauge finally had to admit that the very rough looking barrel in his .223 Savage Low Profile, shot very well (for its intended purpose, as did a case of ammo that did not look at all good on a concentricity gauge, and had bullets seated for a generous amount of jump. Sometimes we forget to listen to our targets.
 
What would be most helpful is an opthamologists report on the vision quality of the user.

EVERYTHING that relates to sight picture, involving a telescopic sight is Objective. Only YOUR Vision matters. Buy "the best scope" going according to "tests" and it's only as good as your eyes...

Loved the recent remarks cited by members here, how NF rep said their "scope tubes are all made on state of the art CNC machinery".... Like duh... only thing "state of the art" about CNC is the controller and software and machining a 30/36mm tube to ID perfection is not rocket science.... Buzzword Bat Scatt.... Like the NF rep who said NF has a "scope tester"... LOL Forever! A "scope tester" Is the NF customer a simpleton? Must be if the NF rep don't know how they "test" or what "tests" they run???

How's your vision? Best scope in the world won't improve it, but at least it won't diminish your ability.

The only "test" or "test eqpt" that matters is your eyesight and your possessing enough inteligence to prove your chosen gear works satisfactorily for you...

If you think you have to spend over $2000 to get superb optical performance, you are just wrong.

The test was for poi holding ability not glass quality. Im still willing to test one of the 29x scopes for you. It may do well. So far what I have learned is poi holding ability doesn't necessarily correlate to price. However, I'll post my findings exactly as I find them good or bad.
 
I will be testing three scopes for long range shooting this summer. I have availability of a Hood scope checker and a frozen scope. I may include testing POI for these three. James20160331122452KAHLES_K1050_MOAK_III.png opplanet-vortex-golden-eagle-15-60-x52-scr-1-moa-tcs-1501-main.jpg ST%2025003.jpg
 
What exatly " optical performance" is is sketchy at best. Good glass is more expensive than less good glass, flurite or ED glass ain't cheap.
That said, lots of folks are missing the distinction between premium scopes and their lesser brethern.....that is the most important thing you pay for.......the absolute ability to hold POI over time.

Well, there is not a person alive that can argue with the first sentence!!!!! I have read it 150 times and still don't even know what you are trying to convey.....that said, I am hunting black bear. The most important thing I pay for is good glass that will allow me to hunt right up until dark. Don't get me wrong, I would like to have a scope that will hold dead on zero and track true. In this day of modern age manufacturing there is no excuse for a scope that will not do this, but apparently some just cant get it done. Back to the bear hunting...I don't require a scope that will hold dead zero, just minute of bear, but I cannot shoot what I cannot see in the dark light. Not everyone needs or finds POI holding to dead zero paramount.
That said, for what good low light glass and coatings cost one would think the simple part of holding zero and tracking would be "along for the ride".
 
Just seeing that the post is stirring others to think and do their own tests is a testament to the value of the post. I thought the post was presented in a very neutral manner and was done with a sincerity for finding out if each scope tested held POI. POI, for me, is crucial. Nothing worse than having drift with your POI and it affecting your confidence in your shooting and your results. Messes with your head.
 
Sometimes it is real hard to telling they are hiding POA. You think I just got caught with that shot. I had one fail so bad it was easy to tell. That is most times not the case. I noticed one guy was shooting a lot better this year. I asked him what the difference was and he said he changed scopes and the fliers disappeared. He said the one or two that was going out of his 1000 yard groups just went away.

I have noticed over the years that the fliers, most times were up and down. I wonder if it is caused by putting all the minutes on to get to 1000 yards. Maybe not enough pressure on the reticle assembly. Matt
 
The test was for poi holding ability not glass quality. Im still willing to test one of the 29x scopes for you. It may do well. So far what I have learned is poi holding ability doesn't necessarily correlate to price. However, I'll post my findings exactly as I find them good or bad.

Hello,

"Point of impact holding ability" there is a mouthful and also a succinctness about that phrase. Kind of relates to the 2 functions of every scopesight. Presumably, once point of impact is established, the reticle is no longer moved by turret change. Most riflescopes don't change point of impact, do they? Unless really subjected to great physical impact. Airgun scopes are designed to take the extra impact or piston movement physics that most riflescopes aren't designed for.

Jeff Cooper was the early guru of tactical rifles with his Scout concept which was conceived in the 80s. These were not varmint barreled rifles built to make tight groups, but light barreled utility rifles serving many functions with field accuracy and precision as one goal, but not the primary goal. Cooper initially sought to revive the B&L, Kuharsky type W/E adjust base system with the no turret scope like the B&L Balvar from 40s & 50s. Ruggedess was the goal.

I guess if you used a 1pc mount on Picatinny rail, and zeroed your optic before "testing", you could fasten it to a paint shaker or other machine that might reproduce physical force impacts, but what does that prove? Maybe the S&B PM-II/III series or $12k Hensoldt is engineered to handle that stress; but probably not... NATO sniper rifles have to survive/function after being dropped from altitude, like a plane; maybe paratroop sniper has rifle dislodge his kit from mid-air? Think that's gonna change point of impact?

While your offer to receive my $2000 merchandise for "testing" is "magnanimous". It seems pretty obvious you have no background in scopesight design, optical engineering, or quality control & product evaluation; no offense. Point of my comment about individual eyesight was to acknowledge the real elephant in the room when comes to optics; they're only as "good" as your vision allows.

I suspect "point of impact holding ability" is really small potatoes in the realm of scope evaluation. Any scopesight that won't hold zero is either broken or defective. Reticle adjustment repeats along with accuracy of each click value is really the foremost concern for a scope-sight used at varying distances. Of course, precision and tactical shooters are now concerned with needle-threading precision and over rate the need for "great glass" .

What a scopesight "does" is reduce the rifle sighting process from aligning 2 elements on different planes (front & rear iron sights) to a single plane with single sight focal point, the reticle. Cooper could not intrerest any mfr in reviving the non-W/E adjustable optic in adjustable base concept. Seems that is the most durable mode for scopesight use, because the optic is an isolated element and the W/E adjustment system can be super robust. The Micrometer adjustable rear sights by Warner and other quality highpower iron sight makers are noted for superb precision capability and repeat functions.

If one is comfortable using a hashmark reticle for holdovers and windage holdoffs then they could setup their scope, using a boresighter-collimator so that the hashmarks provide aiming points from 50 to 1000yds. With a shimmed scope base and something like the US Optics windage adjustable tactical rings, yoiu wouldn't need turret functions at all. Again, for those who want to do holdover/holdoff.

Ultimately, the last syllable of scopesight is the critical function, unless you are looking to put bullets through button thread holes at 1000yds.

Scopesights, due to all their integral components, and complex design features these days are liable to break or depart from design spec. I understand that Marine division level support have S&B technicians to maintain their scopesights. How practical is that if the supply/logistic support goes down? Shouldn't the military specify gear that don't need to be maintained by factory techs? It's not that kind of a world anymore...
 
...I suspect "point of impact holding ability" is really small potatoes in the realm of scope evaluation. Any scopesight that won't hold zero is either broken or defective. Reticle adjustment repeats along with accuracy of each click value is really the foremost concern for a scope-sight used at varying distances...

IMO, this statement could not be more wrong. Reticle adjustments - well, really ANYTHING having to do with scope function - take a back seat to "point of impact holding ability". If the scope can't hold zero, then it really doesn't matter what any of the other qualities of the scope are.

It's easy to dismiss it as measure for being "broken or defective", but good luck convincing a manufacturer of that.
 
To what degree are F class shooters aware that "backlash" stresses, or their potential can be relieved by over-dialing and then coming back? Backlash is a fact of physical design limitations, or at least within realistic cost of manufacturing limitations. Do you compensate for and relieve potential backlash by over-dialling? Or do you pay thousands more for scope with design that makes it unnecessary? Essentially overdialling serves to relieve stress/strain on mechanical parts.

Perhaps if reticle adjustment were operated by non-mechanical means it would offer some greater level of precision, or assure precision with greater consistency? Yet, there is always something that can break in a machine...

I have owned NF picatinny rail for Rem 700. Was very lightweight and not inspiring. Precision shooting happens when a skilled shooter has eliminated as many variables in the rifle, ammunition, and sighting elements of their rifle; that and knows how to judge wind and conditions. The receiver with integral mount eliminates a huge variable. Even fastening scope rail with #8 instead of #6 screws is poor variable management.

I am unable to see any meaningful "testing" possible in the realm of scopesights for end user without having a boresighter-collimation tool in your quiver, along with the brains to see the potentials it offers.
 
To what degree are F class shooters aware that "backlash" stresses, or their potential can be relieved by over-dialing and then coming back? Backlash is a fact of physical design limitations, or at least within realistic cost of manufacturing limitations. Do you compensate for and relieve potential backlash by over-dialling? Or do you pay thousands more for scope with design that makes it unnecessary? Essentially overdialling serves to relieve stress/strain on mechanical parts.

Perhaps if reticle adjustment were operated by non-mechanical means it would offer some greater level of precision, or assure precision with greater consistency? Yet, there is always something that can break in a machine...

I have owned NF picatinny rail for Rem 700. Was very lightweight and not inspiring. Precision shooting happens when a skilled shooter has eliminated as many variables in the rifle, ammunition, and sighting elements of their rifle; that and knows how to judge wind and conditions. The receiver with integral mount eliminates a huge variable. Even fastening scope rail with #8 instead of #6 screws is poor variable management.

I am unable to see any meaningful "testing" possible in the realm of scopesights for end user without having a boresighter-collimation tool in your quiver, along with the brains to see the potentials it offers.
Are you familiar with the details of how a "scope checker" in conjunction with a known quality reference scope is used to check scopes for point of impact shift? I fail to see how a collimator could be used to come up with the information that a scope checker does. The issue is not whether the scope follows adjustments, but whether it holds them.
 
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IMO, this statement could not be more wrong. Reticle adjustments - well, really ANYTHING having to do with scope function - take a back seat to "point of impact holding ability". If the scope can't hold zero, then it really doesn't matter what any of the other qualities of the scope are.

It's easy to dismiss it as measure for being "broken or defective", but good luck convincing a manufacturer of that.

Presuming you missed the comment about "if the scope won't hold zero, it is broken or defective" Right there with the remark you objected to. Scopes DO break... Then you get em fixed....

You are right about hard-headed manufacturers, but.... If you test the same rifle with another scope and it holds, or you own a scopesight collimator and can prove it won't hold, then presumably the manufacturer is going to do right by you. If not, there may be other actions open to you.

Of course, most moderators on gun forums will not allow reporting of real life experiences where company X screws/cheats a customer. But you'll find that out when you try and report about it...

Still, scopes break. There are them that have been broken, and them that are gonna get broken; to paraphase OA Bum Phillips who made that remark about NFL coaches being fired...

My remark was plain, and you missed it.
 
Presuming you missed the comment about "if the scope won't hold zero, it is broken or defective" Right there with the remark you objected to. Scopes DO break... Then you get em fixed....

You are right about hard-headed manufacturers, but.... If you test the same rifle with another scope and it holds, or you own a scopesight collimator and can prove it won't hold, then presumably the manufacturer is going to do right by you. If not, there may be other actions open to you.

Of course, most moderators on gun forums will not allow reporting of real life experiences where company X screws/cheats a customer. But you'll find that out when you try and report about it...

Still, scopes break. There are them that have been broken, and them that are gonna get broken; to paraphase OA Bum Phillips who made that remark about NFL coaches being fired...

My remark was plain, and you missed it.

My testing of 7 scopes last weekend found only one to hold rock solid. You are making assumptions.
 
i think we should be appreciative that Alex took the time to perform the test, publish the results ( knowing conflict would come with it) and then continue to follow up. everyone is busy now days and personal time is usually a precious commodity. regardless of the research being done, it could have been done with greater precision if the tester had only done this or that differently or in addition to what they did. this was just one guy doing some research to get other people thinking or to make them aware of potential problems that they may not have been aware of even being a problem and to help improve his chosen sport among like minded shooters ( run on sentence, i know). kudos to you Alex and i, for one, thank you for the research. :)
 
Wow , Jay I agree. I can look through a scope and see what the optical quality is in the condition I am in at the moment. But POI movement really ? If the scope moves what is the point in having a scope? I was introduced to a scope checker by a friend, after fighting a rifle for a year. He keep telling me the scope was the problem, I keep blowing him off. When I was going to wrap the rifle around a tree. He approached me with the scope checker. I took the rifle apart and installed all the scopes and attached the checker base to the rail. In three shots my new scopes reticle was an inch away from the known good scope. With a new scope the rifle is an honest 1/2 inch rifle. The reason scope makers have been getting away with selling us junk is because we cant prove they are selling a faulty product. I am sick and tired of buying some thing that is not what I was promised. You can measure a rifle inside and out and prove it isn't straight or milled properly. You can open up ammo and weigh the load and all the components and prove it is good or not. What are you going to do with a scope that the maker tells you is good and it isn't. After all the time and money and work one puts into their sport (target shooting or hunting) is it fair that you came home with no meat or got 7th place cause the scope is a mystery and there is no way of knowing if it works or not. We may all be better shooters than we think.
 
Are you familiar with the details of how a "scope checker" in conjunction with a know quality reference scope is used to check scopes for point of impact shift? I fail to see how a collimator could be used to come up with the information that a scope checker does. The issue is not whether the scope follows adjustments, but whether it holds them.

What the hell, I ask, for the 2nd or 3rd time, is a "scope checker"? Just another Bat Scatt term... I know about lens collimators that allign lenses and lens groups. Zeiss sells one for about $150k....

What causes point of impact shift, Boyd? Maybe backlash? Are there gremlins inside the tube?

It is damn pathetic that so many inteligent shooters know so little about scopes. They cost way too much money and are way too delicate; but don't ya need all them features???

How many guys here use 6/46 or whatever the standard fastener is for a mount on a factory tapped receiver? Probably most. How many have had them modified to 8/40, or welded their base to receiver? Probably more than a few use a receiver sleeve...

Can't really isolate variables until you eliminate most of them. Maybe friction turrets are the best for holding zero? But they have other variables like no repeat capacity, cause no clicks...

The bushnell 74-3333 boresight-collimator has a grid. If you used the tool regularly, and kept a log, presumably you could check your scope's reticle position compared to your logged zero and see if it has moved... maybe something else moved? If you have the collimator grid, in 2mins you would know...
 
If your collimator doesn't produce recoil and muzzle blast like a rifle you can keep it. Scopes need to be tested on a rifle, because we use them on rifles. Someone as well informed as yourself should have zero problems understanding what a scope checker is and how its used. Backlash? I turned most scopes down 24 moa to test them, is that enough? LOL
test.jpg
 
So "scope checker", made by who? enables a comparison. Cool. But, who has another "known good scope" lying around? I guess owning a "scope checker" is fine if you don't want further capacity to diagnose and setup your optics. Everybody has a new & presumably "good" scope of same design sitting in a box on the shelf, right?

Not me, at least not that I keep on the shelf. Would have to remove a scope from another rifle, then rezero it; if didn't own the boresighter w/collimation grid...

Something to be said for not having to remove scope from your mount or its rings and having a consistent tool that provides a standard of measure and quality. The grid measures 160moa @ 100yds for both W&E. There is plenty room beyond that to continue your evaluation movements, and real easy with a hashmark reticle to have 180moa or more range of reticle movement for evaluations.

The tool is versatile for scope setup and diagnosis, with probably some capabilities I've never needed or thought to use. There is a lot to be said for a simple and fast solution to verify that your scope and mount system hasn't moved. That's why you keep a log.

Lots of reasons why scopes might shift point of impact; tons of reasons that don't involve the scope function at all. No real way to quickly and simply diagnose this unless you have the collimator tool and either logged or remember your zeroed reference point on the grid.
 
So "scope checker", made by who? enables a comparison. Cool. But, who has another "known good scope" lying around? I guess owning a "scope checker" is fine if you don't want further capacity to diagnose and setup your optics. Everybody has a new & presumably "good" scope of same design sitting in a box on the shelf, right?

Not me, at least not that I keep on the shelf. Would have to remove a scope from another rifle, then rezero it; if didn't own the boresighter w/collimation grid...

Something to be said for not having to remove scope from your mount or its rings and having a consistent tool that provides a standard of measure and quality. The grid measures 160moa @ 100yds for both W&E. There is plenty room beyond that to continue your evaluation movements, and real easy with a hashmark reticle to have 180moa or more range of reticle movement for evaluations.

The tool is versatile for scope setup and diagnosis, with probably some capabilities I've never needed or thought to use. There is a lot to be said for a simple and fast solution to verify that your scope and mount system hasn't moved. That's why you keep a log.

Lots of reasons why scopes might shift point of impact; tons of reasons that don't involve the scope function at all. No real way to quickly and simply diagnose this unless you have the collimator tool and either logged or remember your zeroed reference point on the grid.

I made this one. However I expect so see a couple guys bringing them to market soon. The scope on the right is frozen, internals locked unable to move. A collimator is useless in my opinion unless to diag a broken scope. If its not reproducing recoil and blast its not going to tell you if the scopes shifting shot to shot.
 

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