Savage Actions in Benchrest

[StephenPerry]

Shooters
First I peeked over on BRC to get this topic. This is not a new topic as I have written about it myself several times on different Forums usually with the same result. Some talk and eventually I get fed up with sorting out the arguments. How about good clean discussion this time.
As I read it Fred I assume the gentleman was talking about Sinclair passed along a Varmint rifle made on a Savage action. Now Savage action rifles used in Varmint and Hi-Power competition have been compared to short range BR rifles since BRC has been on the air since about 1995 I think. Fine compare them. I haven't been to all the BR shoots in the Country, lots of Nats and Cactus Shoots never the Super Shoot. I have yet to see a Savage or Mauser action at any of these Shoots. Now I am not to say in the future we don't see some Savage actions but they will not be Savage actions after the smith gets done with them, and the cost of the work will put them with a custom action. A benchrest action is made to do one thing be a benchrest action. These type hold benchrest barrels, benchrest triggers, provide the base for a benchrest scope and function flawlessly, sad thing is not all do the latter. Remington actions have been balanced and blueprinted for decades but internally they don't spec like the Remington you took it off of. I have in small BR arsenal 1 Hall S, 1 Wichita 1350, 1 Rem 40x, and 2 Rem 600's. All these are set up as BR actions with many match barrels. Jewell and Rem 2 oz triggers.
I welcome savage to make a BR action. I don't think they have done it so far. Mr Sinclair could make a BR action out of a hand full of coat hangers, he is that good. To think your Savage action could turn out like his is a pipe dream. I first met Fred in 1977 at the Nats. he is indeed a master at gunwork.

To conclude I appreciate any accuracy rifle I just have a hard time with what I used to hear from Savage rifle owners who claimed 1/4" groups all day long, even hearing a BR rifle doing that. Mother Nature keeps shooters honest. Check the aggs at the Super Shoot, not just the top 20 for how ridiculous that 1/4" claim sounds.
Come back some of you that shoot short range BR or long range and give your feelings about Savage actions or what you use in competition.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Forum Boss]

Steven, I agree 100% with you that a Savage, even a blue-printed Savage, will not run with the Pandas, Vipers, Farleys, BATs and Halls in the short-range game.

But, I believe a Savage, with a good barrel, can be competitive at 300, 600, and 1000. A Savage-actioned barrel block gun still holds the 1-mile record I believe. My Savage 6BR with PacNor barrel has shot a 1.7" 5-shot group at 600 yards in our Ojai club match. It shot a .167" at 100 yards during fire-forming, no flags. Here are 9 sequential 3-shot groups during load testing, with one flag,on the target).

detail

Yes, absolutely--3 shots ain't 5 shots. But this was with a 2.5" rounded fore-end field stock on a $40 rest, shooting 9 different loads with two different powders.

As for the 1000-yard game, check out Gerry Nordmann's "Badlands" rifle, which proved more than competitive in Gerry's first-ever 1000-yard match at the Iowa States: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek040.html

Quite a few guys are building F-Class rifles using the new Savage Precision Target action. Time will tell whether they will be competitive in that game.

As you say, it wouldn't be wise to bring a Savage to the Super Shoot, but I wouldn't hesitate to bring a Savage with a good barrel to the Varmint Jamboree, the Hickory Ground-hog shoot, or a 600-yard BR match. These things may never shoot zeros, but they can shoot quarter-moa,for five) in good conditions. Can they do that Five times in a row? I'd say the guns can--but when you add in fickle winds, I'd bet against it. I bet Lou could Agg 0.2 with my rifle shooting Berger 80s in his tunnel however.

But then, in his Tunnel Lou could Agg low 1s or better with his "real" BR rifle, so that probably proves your point that a Savage action can't be truly competitive at 100/200.

 

[StephenPerry]

Paul
Savage is a great action. For accuracy work better than a Ruger, Winchester though for hi-power not, and run of the mill Remington actions. Your groupings are great. Shows with some time and A GREAT SET OF WIND FLAGS PAUL that even you could be a short range BR shooter. But yes your mid range and long range work will not suffer from a gun of that quality.
I hope we can turn this into a meaningful Thread. Going down to Mike Sosenko's to pick up my Pala gun, 6x47 Lapua. Pala guns might make a nice spread for 6mmBR. They are scary at 200-600m.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Forum Boss]

Stephen,

We've done a story about a husband/wife team that shoot at Pala, Katy and Don--perhaps you've met them. As you saw, shooting silhouettes is a lot of fun--but yes, you need an accurate rifle. At my club most of the top guys switched over to 6BRs and 6BR improveds after seeing how that Savage shot. Our club champ, John Southwick, definitely improved his scores after he switched from a 6-284 to a 6BR. He may give up a little in the wind, but the 6BR had much tighter vertical, day in and day out. We'll see if the 6-6.5x47 Lapua can be better. We have one being built for the site right now on a BAT MB.

Here's the Pala article: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek033.html

As a bonus, Katy even threw in her popular Guacamole recipe.

Katy's Guacamole Recipe

4 ripe avocados, peeled and pitted
1/2 lemon squeezed,I use Meyer lemons, lime juice is also good)
1/2 cup fresh salsa -- your favorite variety
1 tsp garlic salt or fresh garlic chopped

All of the above quantities can be adjusted for taste. Mash the ingredients with a potato masher. Serve with chips, fresh vegetables,carrot sticks, celery, broccoli), or as garnish for tacos, burritos, taquitos, etc., and as special treat - spread on warm buttered toast for breakfast.

Good Shooting and Bon Appetit! -- Don & Katy

 

[rayjay]

Until there is a national 100/200 'Super Production' category I don't think even the most rabid Savage enthusiast is suggesting using a Savage action to win a regional or national event.

 

[Badlands]

In 2005 I came in Fourth Place,Light Gun Group) at my first 1,000 yd. National event with the Badlands gun pictured above. Since then I have won some events at the Iowa 1,000 yd. club, thunder Valley 1,000 yd. club, and came very close at the Williamsport World Open last year. I am not the best shooter, but I have been very happy with the Savages that Fred Moreo has built for me. There are many things involved in Competition Shooting, and the action is only one part of it. Getting a good barrel and developing the right loads is very important. The action supports the barrel and holds the cartridge in the barrel - you could get a vise to do the same. However, the rules don't allow that. The best Custom Acton would't work with out a good barrel, ammo, bench equipment, some shooting skill, and a good Gunsmith. A Savage action can get you there, but a Custom action will get you there in Style. Good Shooting, Gerry Nordmann

 

[Spotcheck_Billy]

I think that Savage provides a way for many shooters to experience BR shooting at a local and less competitive venue before they know whether or not they wish to devote the time and spend the money to have a truly competitive "big league" outfit built.

You want to draw some new blood into the hobby? A shooter who starts out locally with an affordable yet accurate rifle might just get bitten by the bug and wind up competing at one of the "big" events someday. Building on one of Savage's new actions is a great way to get involved in BR competition without going broke.

Not every BR shooter winds up going to the Super Shoot or the Nationals. There are many local venues that provide enjoyable competition where new shooters using less than state-of-the-art equipment can be found. And many of them are shooting Savages.

 

[LDHunter]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=72302642

 

[StephenPerry]

Just got back from my smith and picked up my 6x47 Lapua. Made a good trade with him also. I like to trade for goods not money. The deal was my Unertl 30X for a Krieger 6x47 Lapua barrel new chamber, a muzzle break installed, reducing 100 Lapua 6.5 cases to PPC bolt size, and a near new Weaver 36 scope.
You guys did well when I was gone. Paul I have seen that husband/wife team competing at Pala she and I tied at 46x50 my first Pala shoot. Don't know well enough to say hi yet, I have been there twice. Pala shoots again next Sunday.
I like the comment on a Production Nationals. It would have to come from something other than the NBRSA or IBS. It would be great whether group, score, or silhouette. Also for a guy that could do some of his own work a Savage action would a good way to get into benchrest on a budget. With a Krieger barrel and a Jewell trigger and an appropriate scope using benchrest loading techniques and good flags who says you can't be competitive in BR.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[Forum Boss]

Jewell has been working on a prototype trigger for the Savage and Fred Moreo has tested it, but it's not ready for prime time yet. So, right now there's the factory Accutrigger, the Rifle Basix Sav 2, and Fred's double-sear trigger. From what I hear, the Rifle Basix Sav 2,4 oz.) is the best of the lot. My SSS,Moreo) trigger required a LOT of fitting work and has twice the pull weight of the "match" Accutrigger.

There's also a Timney trigger but it really isn't much of an improvement over stock, as it is not a complete unit, unlike the Sav 2,photo below)

Here's a link to a video on the Sav 2 trigger:

http://www.riflebasix.com/SAV-2_Sample.mpg

 

[chino1969]

Shooters

As I read it Fred I assume the gentleman was talking about Sinclair passed along a Varmint rifle made on a Savage action.

Come back some of you that shoot short range BR or long range and give your feelings about Savage actions or what you use in competition.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Steve,
I believe the 'Fred' is Fred Moreo of Sharpshooter Supply; a Savage gunsmith and out in front of the pack for Savage enhancements. Fred Moreo put together a Savage single shot platform for me about six years ago and I've been quite happy with the results. I use mine as a live varmint rig, have several switch barrels for it, and didn't need to spend a fortune. For someone who wants an accurate platform for a switch barrel rig at an economical price, Savage is a good bang for the buck. Have Fred Moreo do his magic to it and you will have an above average accurate varmint rig. As you can tell by the threads over at BRC, there are people who are changing their views concerning Savages and their potential. Savage, as a factory rifle, has a product line that is for shooters who want a little more. Rates of twist, Accutrigger, single shot actions, minimal headspace, and good quality aftermarket barrels put custom rifle capability into the hands of normal shooters who want the most value and accuracy for their money. Savage listens to their customers and are constantly delivering.
Chino69

 

[StephenPerry]

Chino
Thanks for the correction on Fred. I know Sinclair owns Sinclair International. But the SSS threw me off. I even researched SSS on the Web and wasn't sure.
As far as Savages I feel there should be a production class to allow any factory rifle with a production minimum established compete, doesn't have to be NBRSA or IBS. There are so many shooting groups out there why not form Production Benchrest Shooters Association. This way a guy could shoot what he brung and all this effort to get Production rifles into NBRSA and IBS full blown benchrest can go to sleep. I would shoot Production if there were Shoots around here. We all did that in the old days before we got the BR bug, I always shot 5 shot groups with my 722 and measured them the best I could. Let the little guy have his fun with BR. No need for custom actions and ridiculous $2100 March scopes. Comments please.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[chino1969]

Steven Perry,
You're welcome! I've talked with Fred Moreo several years ago when he was building my rifle and he is a pretty interesting fellow with some tried and proven concepts using Savage actions. The best part is that he is a down to earth regular fellow who can convey information without being smug or superior. As far as your suggestion concerning production rifle competition, it definitely has merit. Not everyone has the desire or financial means to participate in full blown benchrest competition, but would like to compete with an accurate and affordable rifle.
Chino69

 

[flatlander]

I've rebarreled a couple of Savage 12BVSS rifles for the 6 Dasher for customers, and built another Dasher for myself using one of the new Target Actions. All three of these rifles will be used in 600yd. any rifle/any sight prone matches, as well as in BR Varmint Silhouette, with targets at 200, 300, 385, & 500m. I haven't put my Savage on paper at anything closer than 600yds. yet, and so far, all the shooting I've done with it has been with fireforming loads, using S107MKs. I am looking forward to loading some 65gr. Estes FBHP BR bullets with H322 for it and shooting a few groups at 100/200yds. - several of the Dashers & one 6x47 Lapua I've built over the past couple of years have shot a few groups in the mid-teens, so I'm anxious to compare the results I get with this Savage. Note I said "a few groups" - we're not talking aggs here, but then, none of us are serious BR shooters either.

While I've enjoyed working on Rem 700s - and have three LR prone rifles built around 700 actions - they're becoming harder to get as a bare action, and so I really appreciate Savage's making the Target Action available. I believe the TA has the potential to shoot pretty darned good 600yd. scores with a lot less work than the average Rem 700 action, and want to extend my best wishes to the Savage Arms Co. for their continued success.

 

[StephenPerry]

Dennis
You don't have to worried about me when BR statements are made. I sort them out and either accept them or give them the old 1st Airborne motto NUTS.
Since it appears Savage actions are more available seems logical to use them when possible. BR shooters can be a bit exclusive in what they feel is appropriate so therefore Savage action have not made it to short range BR. 30 cal though common 50 years ago in BR had not had any sightings until a couple Score guys that shoot group too burned the targets at the IBS Nats. Are 30's back, only some pursue them. No opinion here.
The day may be close that a few Savage BR guns grace the line. Only when the top dogs shoot one for a season will we know. A great smith and a great barrel can make a great shooter become sold on a action.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[mysticplayer]

Been playing with a number of Savage/Stevens actions to build my F class and other LR rifles. I do not compete in SR BR.

What I have found is that AS THEY COME FROM THE FACTORY, they can shoot extremely well given a quality match barrel. Shooting in dead calm conditions, I have quite a few that will shoot in the 2's and 3's. One that shoots in the 1's. testing at 200yds and 300m.

They will hold my MOA rock at 1000m if I get the conditions right. No work is done on these actions whatsoever, except smoothing the bolt lift and replacing the trigger.

I say dead calm because I am the limiting factor and am not a world class wind doper. I am discussing mechanical accuracy not how poorly I shoot.

For the investment involved, I consider them the best bang for the buck. For a factory action based rifle, a no brainer.

The QC from the factory is already very good and that floating bolt head does take care of many sins,you always get good lug contact with the receiver). The barrel nut does have a benefit when using prefit/prethreaded barrels. I have taken a few barrels and switched them between actions and they have shot the same. Lock up on high pressures loads is excellent and brass life is great.

Am I saying that this action will replace custom actions in the SR BR game? I know very little about this part of shooting. I can only say that a few much better at this game are trying.

Is the factory Savage action good for LR shooting where shooting in the 2's and 3's is all that is needed, you bet!!!! With a quality barrel, that level of accuracy is easily achieved WITHOUT the cost of 'smithing.

I see little point in taking this action and throwing huge amounts of time and money at it. First I don't see it being needed,that floating bolt head eliminates many of the woes of a solid bolt head) and any improvements will likely not justify the costs. Money spent to improve that bolt lift is money well spent though. I use the Rifle basix 2 trigger and it is the best light weight trigger I have felt,no new Accutriggers here yet).

If you can use the action as it comes,plus bolt lift work and a new trigger), that provides a great economical way for shooters to enter that sport. I expect to see good showings from the new 'BR' single shot actions. For F class and other LR sports, I think they will do very very well.

Jerry

 

[StephenPerry]

Jerry
Let's be a little realistic here. If you are talking inches I can bite but 1/10" in groups. No. Not even 2/10".
I like the idea that Savage makes a nice gun but why spoil it for the newer guys. Factory rifles don't shoot like that. Guys with Savage rifles know better.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[EdwinD]

I have a new LRPV in 204 ruger that will not shoot.

Ed

 

[rayjay]

Expecting every production target gun to be a great shooter is unrealistic and the exact reason I don't support 'as produced' factory classes. Some percentage of the rifles are not going to shoot worth a damn and a for a guy on a tight budget there is nothing more disheartening than getting a 'lemon' . Then he has to try and get rid of the thing, take a loss of several hundred $$$, and then hope the next rifle does better. More than likely he just gives up.

For the same money he buys a used single shot and sells everything but the action. Then he adds whatever make bbl he wants, a trigger, a real BR stock and he has a rifle that will grand agg .4 or better with a complete novice doing the shooting and reloading.

Who knows, maybe in a few months or years he upgrades to a custom action. Then again maybe he stays happy competing in the 'prod' class forever.

 

[EdwinD]

Rayjay,

YOU are precisely correct!

Fortunately, I bought two LRPV's for varmint hunting, and I have not tested the second one yet.

I have numerous benchrest rifles.

A production gun is just that, a "production" gun.

The same day I shot the LRPV I also shot a "6 Coyote" smithed by Jerry Simison.

No windflags, therefore as Shelley said, "blind ass luck" that gun shot a ZERO and a ONE three shot test load groups.

Oranges AND grapefruits.

Edwin D.