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Savage 12 F/TR vs Savage 25 LV-T

The Savage 12 F/TR chambered for .223 using a 30" barrel with a 1 in 7" twist runs $1302 MSRP.
The Savage 25 LV-T chambered for .223 using a 24" barrel with a 1 in 9" twist runs $712 MSRP.

Is the 12 F/TR that much better? I like the looks of both of these rifles and would love to get the 12 F/TR but that might be tough to get by "she who makes decisions"..

They both appear to have the accutrigger system and I know savage rifles are good all around so I'm sure they are both high quality products.. But is the 12 F/TR twice as good as the 25 LV-T for making holes in paper?

The 12 F/TR has 6 extra inches and a tighter twist.. how much difference does that make?

Thanks guys.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here but I think these are two really different guns.The F/TR is a F-class style gun and with the 1in 7 twist will shoot the heavy 105and 107 bullets.If memory serves the LV-T is a new action that savage has just recently started selling,it looks just like the 17hmr actions.I'm by no means an exspert on this but it looks like it really depends on what you intend to shoot with what you buy.I have two model 12FV's and they are very good guns,one is a 223 with a 1in 9 twist and will shoot 1/4 inch groups with 69 gr sierra's with ease if I do my part.The other was 22-250 but I rebarreled it to a 6br it also is an excellent gun.Both are blued guns and neither cost me over 400 dollars so like I said I guess it depends on what you are going to shoot with it.
 
I'll go even further out on that limb. fataldert is right. They are two totally different guns.
Do yourself a favor and stay away from the model 25. At the risk of enflaming 25 owners everywhere its just a silly design that should never have been produced by Savage.
Savages are great guns. Only factory gun I've bought so far. Four actions and sumptin like 16 different barrels in assorted calibers I can swap around at home with no smithing.
All Savage centerfire bolt actions have the switch barrel capability, except the oddball 25.

Its my understanding the 25 started life as a rimfire design. Then was beefed up to include the 22 Hornet. Later it was strenghened just a bit more to handle the 223.

Check out the model 12 VLP. Top of the line beginners gun.
 
By all means get the F/TR if "she who makes descisions" can be whooed sufficently;)
Get a target model in 6BR and you'll among the happiest married men on the planet ;D

BTW You will not have to pay MSRP. The MSRP prices did just jump through the roof in the last month or so but historically you never ever pay MSRP.
 
If you're going to settle for a 223, why go with the F/TR? You're paying a lot of extra $$$ to get the precision target action, laminated target stock, and the extra long bbl. If I were going to invest the extra money in one of Savage's Precision LR rifles, it'd be one chambered for 6BR; otherwise, you can get a very nice 223 in their 12BVSS for about 30% less than the F/TR, and invest the difference in a good scope.

Hope this doesn't come across as a dig at Savage - I think it's great that finally, one of our American rifle manufacturers is interested in building rifles like Savage's LR precision series, including the F/TR, F-class, Palma, BR, and LR Precision Varminter. IMHO, this puts Savage in a class by itself, and I applaud their courage & insight in marketing these rifles.
 
A lot depends on how much you think the Model 12 Competition action adds to the package and its performance. It has a larger diameter receiver than the other Savage 12 actions, and much smaller ejection port which is more on the side than the top, both adding stiffness. The larger diameter also sees a heavier / meatier barrel in the chamber section used. There are three bedding screws instead of two. All Target Action models have the competition version of the AccuTrigger that adjusts down to 1/2lb pull-weight. The target action might not add much if anything other than the improved trigger initially to your shooting at this range, but gives you a superior action as the basis for any future rebuild as a custom or semi-custom rifle. Over here on our side of the Atlantic, Target action models hold their secondhand value much better than any of the sporting models, and that probably applies with you as well.

If you want a cheaper model with this action, or simply the basis of a very good gun, I'd recommend the single-shot version of the 12 LRPV (right bolt; left port) with heavy 26" barrel as an alternative to the Target Series rifles. I'd also class the LRPV as preferable to the BVSS for your shooting, unless you really prefer a laminated stock over a synthetic one. The LRPV has a really good HS Precision stock with one of the longest, stiffest moulded-in bedding blocks you'll find - better than the Remington 700 Police and similar models, and a very stiff synthetic stock. (The BVSS and F/TR etc with laminated stocks are pillar-bedded, but with very small pillars and usually benefit from a bit of work on the bedding.)

The .223 Rem LRPV is available in 1-7" or 1-9" rifling twist rates, and I imagine the former will also be throated longer too. 1-7" lets you use all the 80gn bullets available on the market, which buck the wind a bit better than the 69-75s that the 1-9" twist handles, and can provide superb accuracy. It also handles the new 90gn models, the Berger VLD and Match BT Long-Range the ones to try. At 26" barrel length you don't lose very much velocity over 30" with the little .223 Rem cartridge, not enough anyway to worry about at 300 yards. You'll still be able to get 2,900 fps or therabouts from an 80-grainer.

I know from personal experience how well the 12 LRPV package works having won last years UK Benchrest Assoc 'Factory Sporter' class championship with one chambered for .204 Ruger. I've also seen .223 Rem versions perform very well off the bench at 100 yards, albeit all those I've seen so far in this chambering are 1-9" twist models, which is almost certainly a better choice than the 1-7" for this range.

Something else for you to consider anyway!

Laurie,
York, England
 
The F/TR seems nice because it's a fast twist and long barrel which seems like it would do wonders for the heavy bullets I'm pondering.. Having said that I could be completely off base.. (And it looks cool which goes a long way =)

It's good to know that MSRP isn't the standard.. some of these things are a tad on the highside..

I still am not sure about my caliber (see the other thread).. if I go .223 I will want to reload for heavier rounds for getting the 300meter accuracy which means I want the 7twist right? The BVSS is a 9twist..

Though flatlander makes a good point.. once I get the rifle I still need good glass..

From a personal aesthetic preferences point of view, I do prefer the laminated wood to the synthetic stock..

But if you say the port makes that big of a difference then I need to rethink things..

WHy does the right bolt/left port matter?
 
WHy does the right bolt/left port matter?

In itself, it doesn't. It's the matter of ensuring you get a solid receiver model with the small single side port - and in the LRPV, that's on the left side. It's a bit of an affectation (IMO) borrowed from benchrest competition practice, in that you shoot quickly by operating the bolt with the right hand, while the left stays on the cartridge box or tray and feeds a new round in as soon as the bolt is open. There is a magazine version of the LRPV though that will have a less rigid receiver as it has a hole in the bottom for the magazine, and a larger top port (needed up there and with larger dimensions to allow the shooter to insert and press cartridges down into the magazine box. (F and F/TR models are identical to the LRPV, but have a right port, while the recently introduiced BR version is dual port - feed from the left and eject from the right as per most modern custom BR competition rifles.)

Of course, you may prefer a rifle with magazine feed. However, my experience with both F and LRPV models is that the single-shot action is a very slick operator. Simply chuck the cartridge into the port and start closing the bolt, as simple as that. This is a really well designed action.

Laurie
 
Part of the point I was trying to make was - if you're going to invest in one of the more expensive M12s, you might as well get the most bang for your buck, and go with a 6BR. Sure, the 223 is less expensive to load for, and does have slightly less recoil, but in a rifle with the weight of the M12 competition (in all its versions), recoil of either of these two cartridges isn't going to be much of a consideration.

If you were absolutely certain you'd never need or want to shoot out past 300yds., the 223 would be a fine choice. However, once you've experienced the pleasure of shooting a rifle with excellent accuracy at that distance, it's not unlikely that you'll eventually want to stretch out and try some 600, or even 1000yd. shooting. I've done a lot of shooting with AR15 service rifles at 600, and even a little at 1000, using JLK 90 VLDs. I've also played with the 90s at 600&1000yds in a M70 223 that I rebarreled. I much prefer a 6 BR or Dasher with 105-107gr. bullets for either distance.

Actually, with a Savage, buying a single shot rifle set up as a 223 doesn't mean you're stuck with the .378" dia. boltface & the 223 family of cartridges. If you decide you'd like to own a 6 BR, you can purchase a .473" dia. bolthead & a barrel, then make the change yourself. All it takes is a barrel vise, headspace go gauge, and a barrel nut wrench.
 
flatllander-

You've raised an interesting question. I was not aware that the locking bolt head could be changed out on the Savage. IS it pinned in? Is this something that the owner can do with a minimal amount of tools?

Thanks
Bill
 
The Savage 12 bolt has a pinned head that can be switched out by the user. Midwest sells the heads.

Not to belabour the original question but I picked up one of the first Savage 25s that appeared in an Ontario gun shop. Good grief. Sorry Savage. But I guess it is intended for the casual shooter not wishing to lay down serious coin.

If you are not going to be a serious dedicated globe trotting F Class shooter, I still think the Savage 12 VLP is a really good pick.

Equally good is the Rem 700 VSSF. Good trigger and bedded in an aluminum block.

But unless you want really cheap reloading, stay away from the .223. The fact that 7 twist barrels are available to get around the problems of long range shooting with a cartridge the diameter of a pencil and magnum primers have to be used to handle the pressures routinely used in an effort to drive too heavy bullets through a too fast twist would indicate to me that there is a real problem here. Sorry. I was running on again.................

I think all of this debate shows how lucky we are to ponder over the merits of so many good target rifles.
 
Bill, it is quite easy to change bolt heads. I changed a 223 head to a 308 size when I rebarreled to a 22-250 AI on a 12 bvss. Fred Moreo can supply the bolt head and advice on how to do it, then if you decide to change back you have the correct bolt head. good luck, ronfoster
 

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