Sanity Check on using AR15 for F-TR

[Twitchy]

Guys, my plan is to run a billet AR15 (223) for 600y F/TR. It has a 26" 1/7 Krieger, 5.5-25NF, PRS stock, and Giselle 2 stage trigger. I have a used Sinclair bipod on the way along with a quality rear bag.

It prints groups down into the .3"s, but typically they are around .4"-.6" with a harris bipod using a sand sock. (Literally my old sock filled with sand)

I know I won't hold a candle to the 308s, I'm doing this more as a competition with myself to try and improve.

I would like to use this setup simply because my 223 bolt gun needs a new barrel which is money I don't have at the moment, and my 308 bolt gun is too neutered (20"), although it reaches out to 1000 just fine, I am maxing loads to make it happen. Although it does print tiny groups at short range, it just doesn't have the push to compete with the faster 155s or heavier 180s+.


Any advice? Is this a losing proposition?

 

[Kakumba]

A .223 can be quite competitive. If you are using high BC bullets like the Berger 90 grain VLD, its not inconceivable for you to win, or at least place well, in competitions. So, go for it. The best way to get better is to shoot more.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I'd be happy with that with a bolt gun in .223 for F-TR at 600 yards. What bullet are you doing that with? A 69 grain or heavier, and I'd say you are good to go at 600.

Depending on the wind, you can shoot pretty good scores with that rig at 600.
Get out, shoot a match, let us know how it goes.

 

[Twitchy]

I'd be happy with that with a bolt gun in .223 for F-TR at 600 yards. What bullet are you doing that with? A 69 grain or heavier, and I'd say you are good to go at 600.

Depending on the wind, you can shoot pretty good scores with that rig at 600.
Get out, shoot a match, let us know how it goes.

I mainly use 77g SMKs. I use them for my SPR comps and general distant steel smacking days. I tried 80g SMKS with so-so results. I'll need to do further testing. 90g SMKs not so hot. Groups were bad. Same with Berger 75g VLDs. I simply could not get those to work. I tried all the recommended seating depths (jammed through xxx off the lands) and charge weights.


I did use the rifle in a match the 2nd day I had it put together. I did minor load testing on day one did a 600 yard/ 5" steel plate comp. NO surprise I was in a 3 way tie for last place. I was shooting prone with bipod/sock against benchrest guns.


I'm planning on trying some berger 80.5s and hornadys amax to see if they're any good. The SMK does great, but really gets pushed good by the wind.

 

[dcali]

It's good enough to shoot. But you will be at a significant disadvantage even at 600. Have fun but don't be surprised if you don't place near the top. Also, get some 80's. The 77's are a step back and you'll need all the help you can get against the bolt guns. My experience with the 77's is that they tend to group better up close but quickly fall behind the 80's past 500 yards or so.

 

[gilmillan1]

I agree with demoncali. You are taking a Jetta to a 1/4 mile race.

 

[DRNewcomb]

Make sure you have a good bolt catch. They take a beating in single fire.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I did use the rifle in a match the 2nd day I had it put together. I did minor load testing on day one did a 600 yard/ 5" steel plate comp. NO surprise I was in a 3 way tie for last place. I was shooting prone with bipod/sock against benchrest guns.

I don't worry too much where I finish compared with others. I am competing with the course and conditions with a given tool. By the end of the season, I hope to see what the triple deuce and a Pump Remington .308 can do.

Will they win? No way. But I'll know much better what they can do at 600 than if I only ever see what "more competitive" guns can do.

If wind conditions are relatively mild, that combo should be able to average 180-190 per 20 shot stage. That's a big range, but it is a good starting point for improvement by reading the wind better. You learn a lot less (and pay more for ammo) by beating the wind with heavier high BC bullets, especially if you move up to Bergers in .308.

On windier days, that combo might struggle to break 180. Use the opportunity to improve your wind reading skills. Sure, you could buy your way to higher scores with a long barreled .308 bolt gun and high BC bullets, but that proves more about your wallet than about your skill.

I think most shooters would benefit tremendously by shooting a few F-Class matches with every gun in their safes that can keep the bullet in the black. The first match doesn't show the potential, only the starting point. I think most AR owners fantasize about their capabilities at 600 yards. You are really finding out what yours can do. There are some real strengths, but there are limitations too. All that will go from theory to reality for you.

 

[mac86951]

I shoot my 20" barrel AR at 600 often.

Wind reading is the key. I highly recommend single loading 80s, or 75amax at a min. From Mag length, I think the Berger 70 vld trumps the 77smk, but depends on accuracy and velocity node.

600y I'm struggling with a 20" barrel (380s/400). But if I can bring in a few 9s...

 

[Va Jim]

Any advice? Is this a losing proposition?[/QUOTE]

If you are going for the overall win you wont stand a chance. If however you are going to have fun and learn, Heck yes come out and have some fun. Run what you have, reload what you can and learn about wind reading. Then if you decide to upgrade you can but if it not for you then you havent broken open the bank.

James Crofts

 

[Archer]

Guys, my plan is to run a billet AR15 (223) for 600y F/TR. It has a 26" 1/7 Krieger, 5.5-25NF, PRS stock, and Giselle 2 stage trigger. I have a used Sinclair bipod on the way along with a quality rear bag.

It prints groups down into the .3"s, but typically they are around .4"-.6" with a harris bipod using a sand sock. (Literally my old sock filled with sand)

I know I won't hold a candle to the 308s, I'm doing this more as a competition with myself to try and improve.

I would like to use this setup simply because my 223 bolt gun needs a new barrel which is money I don't have at the moment, and my 308 bolt gun is too neutered (20"), although it reaches out to 1000 just fine, I am maxing loads to make it happen. Although it does print tiny groups at short range, it just doesn't have the push to compete with the faster 155s or heavier 180s+.


Any advice? Is this a losing proposition?

I think you had better read the new NRA rules for mid range use of the AR platform. Scope is limited to 12 power, there is a weight limit, and your ammo has to fit and load from the magazine. There was a post here a few months back regarding this new rule.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/new-mid-range-game-for-ars-in-2016.3894053/#post-36702900

 

[DRNewcomb]

I think you had better read the new NRA rules for mid range use of the AR platform. Scope is limited to 14 power, there is a weight limit, and your ammo has to fit and load from the magazine. There was a post here a few months back regarding this new rule.

This is only an alternative class to shoot alongside other rifles in an F-Class match and is not, in any way, obligatory. You could shoot an AR as F-Open if you wanted.

 

[Archer]

This is only an alternative class to shoot alongside other rifles in an F-Class match and is not, in any way, obligatory. You could shoot an AR as F-Open if you wanted.

True, but he specifically states that he wishes to shoot F T/R...so, he needs to understand those rules and restrictions...

 

[ED3]

True, but he specifically states that he wishes to shoot F T/R...so, he needs to understand those rules and restrictions...

As I read the link you offered , it describes a new class of competition: "...It's called Mid-Range Tactical Rifle (AR)...
1. To be fired concurrently with any other Mid-Range event, alongside of F-Class & "sling"
2. Fired on the "sling targets"..."

It's not part of F Class, and an AR shooter will not be bound by those rules, but rather those of the F Class category he chooses to shoot.

Your post suggests the rules for the new AR class somehow impact shooting an AR in F Class, which they do not.

TO the OP:
Shoot you AR, or similarly capable rifle;
have fun, learn from the experience.
Good Luck.

 

[Ned Ludd]

An AR is completely legal for F-TR as long as it's .223 or .308, is single-fed, and makes weight. Having shot .223 bolt guns for some time in F-TR, I can tell you that a 69, 75, or 77 gr bullet will be a significant disadvantage at 600 yd, no matter how fast you're pushing them. If you chamber will allow you to load them optimally, the 80.5s are a much better bullet, very forgiving to load, with a much higher BC. I doubt you have anywhere near enough freebore to seat the 90 VLDs optimally, although if you can, that's really the way to go. However, the 80.5s would be a distinct step up from the lower weight/BC bullets. In any event, this setup is what you currently have. Optimize the load as best you can and keep participating and enjoying it. I'd also think about getting a higher mag optic at some point, but what you have will work for now. Just remember, having fun will keep you coming back. Also, improving your skill with a .223 will only make you a better wind reader and shooter. Good luck!

 

[Twitchy]

Thanks for the input guys. I'll definitely being looking into the 80.5s. As far as shooting an AR in F/TR, I did ask a match director just to clarify after reading the NRA handbook/pdf. So long as I don't have a muzzle device, make weight, and single feed I shouldn't have an issue being allowed. I did also read about the AR specific class that some clubs have, but none of the clubs that I know of (in my area) ever specifically mention it or have it.

 

[boltman13]

First of all HAVE FUN. Your 1:7 barrel and 26" of it will give you the ability to drive 75-80 gr match bullets at very respectable velocities. When I started shooting F-class Mid Range I used an AR-15 with a White Oak Armament 26" Wilson barrel and 75 gr Hornady A-Max bullets, which gave typical groups of 0.75" with occasional ones close to 0.50". I was not able to compete with the top shooters but I was able to compete with shooters in my classification. The Sinclair bipod and high quality rear bag will also help. Be sure to remove the rear sling bracket if you have one. If you shoot F-TR Long Range it is doable but you will really be at a disadvantage in tricky winds. Still just HAVE FUN. Best of luck.

 

[DRNewcomb]

.... The Sinclair bipod and high quality rear bag will also help. ......

I want to emphasize the quality rear bag. When I first started shooting F-Class I thought a Caldwell bag would work. It was the first bit of equipment I replaced. (Used only once.) I went out and ordered the biggest Protektor Model bag I could find.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Guys, my plan is to run a billet AR15 (223) for 600y F/TR. It has a 26" 1/7 Krieger, 5.5-25NF, PRS stock, and Giselle 2 stage trigger. I have a used Sinclair bipod on the way along with a quality rear bag.

It prints groups down into the .3"s, but typically they are around .4"-.6" with a harris bipod using a sand sock. (Literally my old sock filled with sand)

I know I won't hold a candle to the 308s, I'm doing this more as a competition with myself to try and improve.

I would like to use this setup simply because my 223 bolt gun needs a new barrel which is money I don't have at the moment, and my 308 bolt gun is too neutered (20"), although it reaches out to 1000 just fine, I am maxing loads to make it happen. Although it does print tiny groups at short range, it just doesn't have the push to compete with the faster 155s or heavier 180s+.


Any advice? Is this a losing proposition?

A billet upper? Are you nuts, it should be forged! You'll never hit anything with a billet upper.

Ok, just kidding there.

I started in F-TR with an AR-15 and after a while I rebarreled it with a 26 inch Krieger. The twist rate in mine is 1:7.7, not 1:7. I also had them chamber it with their 5.56 NATO Match chambering, which allowed the use of long bullets.

I used a Bobsled as a bolt open device and it really makes single loading a breeze. I also installed a through-the-fingerguard bolt release, which makes it much more convenient once in position. Because I was using this rig for 1000 yards, I also added a CWS to the carrier, with the heavy insert. I was using nuclear-grade loads and wanted to retard the bolt unlocking as long as possible. I also swapped the action spring with one of Tubb's C/S spring. (I have one of those in all my ARs, including my AR-10, eliminates the boing sound.) In fact, I replaced all the springs with C/S springs equivalent whenever possible. The stock is a Magpul PRS and the bipod was a Sinclair Gen 2 at the time. I replaced the regular grip with one of Tubb's grip, which is the absolute best for shooting prone with an AR.

For ammo, I was using the 80gr JLKs at all ranges (300,600, 1000) in a Winchester case with 25.5gr Varget and the bullet seated at over 2.5 (I forget the details.) I did start with the 75 A-Max, but I could not keep them supersonic at 1000 during the Houston winters; the 80 JLKs never gave me an issue.

I never used the 77SMK for F-class as I consider that bullet to be the best for mag-length cartridges and sub-par for single loading precision. The 69 gr was better but the 80s are far superior.

At the end of my run with that AR, I was able to reach High Master at mid-range (300-600), but could not get out of Sharpshooter at Long Range. Stuff happens to .223 bullets past 600 yards. That's when I decided to switch to a bolt .308 and never looked back.

I had a great time with that AR, it is an absolute fun gun to shoot and precise as all get out, but even with an MV of over 2800FPS, the 80grainers just could not keep up with the tiny F-class rings at 1000 yards.

You will have a lot of fun with an AR, I could actually go though a string without ever breaking cheekweld. The semi auto action yanks out the spent case and I just dropped a new cartridge in the port and pushed the bolt release lever in the trigger guard and was ready to go again.

 

[Laurie]

Like Denys I started my F-Class shooting with an AR, our GB manually operated (straight-pull as we call them) side-handle type, so no 25.5gn VarGet charges as I'd likely not have managed to get the bolt open. 1/8 twist 24-inch Lilja barrel shooting the 80gn SMK in a modified Wylde chamber, 2.455" COAL and single loaded using a Bob Sled-no fancy Bergers back then and the barrel hated the 80gn AMAX. This was in the very early days of the discipline so we still used the 2-MOA 'Bull' target and scored 6 for a V-Bull (would be 11 points for an 'X' on your target). There was no FTR as yet so we shot against 6.5s (mostly 6.5X55mm / AI but the first few 6.5-284s were appearing) as well as vast numbers of 308s.

I used it at every distance from 200 to 1,000 yards on a range noted for stiff winds so double figure windage settings weren't unknown at 800-1,000. The L-R comps were great fun, especially seeing people's faces when I got an occasional good shot in. At the time few Brits believed the 223 could even hit the frame at 1,000 never mind get in the 'black'. Bullets were subsonic at that distance but stayed stable. The biggest trouble was that on this range, the butts crews can't see the bullet strike on the backstop sand and rely on the supersonic crack and staring at the target face waiting on a hole appearing. With tiny holes, spread rather a lot laterally (Ha! Ha!) and whispering along below the speed of sound, I had to ask the RO to have the target pulled every second shot or so.

This was great fun and gave no end of really useful experience as well as the occasional really frustrating day. In one regional 'Open comp' with 300/500/600 stages, I even won the F Class medal largely through the 600 yard score. One 308 shooter was really upset afterwards - couldn't believe he'd been beaten by someone shooting a +*!!* 223. Go for it Twitchy - you'll have a great time mid range. As Denys says though - don't use a 77 unless desperate. If you can find an 80 that shoots at all well use that.