Runout addicts? Hi, my name is Dan... Need copy of the 12 steps...

[Danattherock]

So I have got in over my head. Cart and horse are no longer connected. I had never heard of runout till a few weeks back. Now I'm counting decimal points in my sleep. It's unhealthy.

Bought the 21st Century conc gauge two weeks back. Best and worst thing I ever bought. Fantastic tool that provides me data I don't want to see. Ignorance is bliss, has new meaning.

I bought Forster Ultra seater die this past week. It was a dud and will be heading back to Forster this week. Their tech guy Scott was incredible and responded to my email in 18 minutes. With his diagnostic skills it took very little to confirm the issue. Oddly enough, I have full faith this die will help upon its return trip to me.

Just measured 28 pieces of 4x fired Lapua 223 brass and average runout on case neck of resized brass was 0.004". Runout of fired brass was nil, a thou or so. Kreiger 20" barrel. All brass trimmed to within a thou on Forster trimmer. RcBs case prep, Cham, deburr, etc. SMK 77 and Nosler CC 77's.


What's next?

I keep hearing about expander balls being bad. I just put a carbide expander button in my Redding deluxe FL sizer.

Should I remove the expander and use die without it?

Should I use it with rubber O ring under decapping nut?

Should I get a Redding S bushing die, or a Forster FL die?

Is neck turning the next step? Inside or outside the 'norm'?

21st Century mini lathe?

Annealing required?

What is the most logical sequence I should follow? I don't know what aspects hold priority over others. Is the Rock Chucker up to the task? Any equipment and/or general hierarchy of needs type of insight would be great. I'm $400 poorer than I was two weeks ago and have nothing but a bunch of numbers jotted down on notecards on the kitchen table to show for it. It's my fault for jumping in, but if anyone wanted to throw a life preserver, it would be a great time.

I'm going to have 3-5 weeks out of work (back surgery) starting Feb 17th. I will have lots of down time for a change. Would really benefit from having something to occupy my time and thoughts. I'm still the village idiot, but articulating my thoughts clearly enough to let you guys know my goals. Or so I hope. How do I get there from here?


Where's the coffee?

;D


Dan

 

[michaelnel]

Forget the measurements. Howzit shoot? On paper is the only thing that counts.

 

[Danattherock]

Just got barrel a few weeks back, put it on one of my Barnes Precision AR-15's. First batch of test loads I shot a 0.501" seven shot group. Which is very good as I don't consider myself a good shot. Just yanked the Burris Black Diamond 8-32 off my 50 BMG and gave the new Kreiger 20" barrel a try.

That motivated me to delve deeper into reloading. My goal for this coming year is a 260 Rem and Bushnell 3.5-21 for designated marksman and practical long range events in my area. Already bought 2,000 Lapua 139 gr Scenars and H4350 to go with. Using the AR to cut my teeth so to speak. I need to work on my marksmanship and reloading skills to achieve the goals I have.



Dan

 

[nosualc]

First thing, you gotta find where your runout is introduced.

In my experience, most runout comes from the sizing die. .004 on sized brass is bad way to start. With that much neck runout, your bullet runout is gonna be bad. Prove it to yourself: size 5 pieces with the expander, and 5 without. Measure.

Most guys remove the sizing button, but if your sizing die is a standard FL die, that'll leave you with way too much neck tension. Hence, bushing dies.

Next would be your seater. Again test it yourself. You can play with 0-rings, rotating the cartridge a couple quarter turns during seating, etc. I prefer the wilson arbor press seaters for a multitude of reasons.

Next would be your case necks. Unturned brass has varying thickness in the necks. When you size the neck, that inconsistency is pushed to the inside (e.g. - the outsize of the neck is concentric, the inside isn't). Seat a bullet and and it won't likely be concentric to the case body.

Concentricity is a deep dark rabbit hole. You have to decide how far you're willing to go. The law of diminishing returns does apply.

-nosualc

 

[snert]

Dan,

can I offer a little counsel? First, you are the first I have seen in print actually admit the heart-burn inducing aspect of a C-gauge. As a customer service person who regularly talks with folks about the dreaded word, (Concentricity) I often mull how Prozac should be included in every gauge box. You are a brave man to admit it! And there is a short two step program that involves 1) decision 2) ebay ;D

That said lets point out a few other things:

If loading "perfect" ammo is a significant part of your enjoyment, then a c-gauge is a friend. However, unless you are a super shoot candidate it will not be as cost effective improvement as say, spending the same money on good brass and bullets to practice with. I say this because I note that at the end of the season (despite barrel wear, etc) my gun always shoots better than at the beginning!

I should also point out a small fact:
Brass that is fired in a great chamber will not have run-out because it was molten when it formed in that chamber. When you cold swage it (oops, size it in a die) every "defect" in the brass will be chased right out to the neck. Neck turning will not fix brass that has thin spots in the wall. Buy good brass...

Also, give some thought to the fact that if you go to a carbide sizing button, the bearing surface is much shorter, and frankly, the steel ones tend to create less run-out.

I guess what I am getting at is you simply have to decide for yourself if the "c-issue" is worth the joys and pains, or if your shooting really improves because of or for lack of it.

Either way, enjoy the game, but don't stress to much.

Snert

 

[jonbearman]

I think it would be much wiser to get as much trigger time and learn proper pull technique, stop flinching which is very hard if it is an issue, start paying attention to the wind and mirage and read all you can about the last 2 subjects I mentioned. Are you shooting off a bipod or a rest with a bag? Are you manhandling the rifle during your firing sequence. You have to be consistent about each aspect to get good at what you do. If you use a bipod , are you loading it properly? Read tony boyers book and david tubs book for many noteworthy aspects of our sport.What powders are you using?

 

[snert]

Oh, yeah, best of luck ion the back surgery. Just be careful afterward that you do not load while taking the pain meds! They can give you overconfidence! Ask me how I know..no nevermind, don't!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Custom sizing die. Sounds like youve already found very good factory dies. Get a custom and then check it on paper. Life is easier then

 

[SG4247]

o-ring under the shell holder as requested...

Notice the o-ring is just above the silver press ram shaft.

 

[C Valentine]

Dan, welcome to the club...and thanks for making me laugh! I know exactly where you are coming from. Just curious, and maybe you already said this and I missed it, but have you used your C-gauge on the INSIDE of your cases to see whats going on there? That's agood thing about the 21st Century...you can measure both the outside and the inside of the neck for the wobbles.
Maybe you and I should see if we can get a group discount on Valium. ) Until the weather lets me get out and shoot, I will probably continue to become more and more crazy about this stuff because it is all I have to do!

 

[Joe R]

Danattherock said:

What's next?

I keep hearing about expander balls being bad. I just put a carbide expander button in my Redding deluxe FL sizer.

Should I remove the expander and use die without it?

Should I use it with rubber O ring under decapping nut?

Should I get a Redding S bushing die, or a Forster FL die?

Is neck turning the next step? Inside or outside the 'norm'?

21st Century mini lathe?

Annealing required?

You sound like the OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) type and most of us here fall into that category. Typical behavior is once you start on something you're like a bloodhound on the trail of a fox and won't rest until you find that fox.

Before you spend any more money you need to get yourself a copy of Glen Zediker's book "Handloading for Competition - Making the target bigger". You may not plan on competing but it is a good primer for precision handloading. It will give you a good overall view of all the detailed issues you'll be dealing with and has enough detail to get you thinking in the right direction. He shoots an AR-15 (in competition they are called Service Rifles).

Having said that, two things that will improve your brass preparation are:
1. flash hole de-burring and
2. neck turning.

Flash hole deburring is easy and cheap. Buy a screwdriver thingy and push down the neck and ream the flash hole from the inside to remove and burrs that may cause deflection/uneven ignition.

Neck turning is more work and a bit more money. I avoided it as long as I could, but when I started getting stuck cases because the necks were getting thick I had to cross that bridge. It took two firing of my brass to start getting stuck necks, since you are using Lapua you may be able to go longer than I did.

Like others have said the runout gauge is a great tool that will help you find out where runout is being introduced to you brass. That means measuring before and after each operation and then fixing that problem and move on to the next problem.

Here's a word of caution. This hobby gets expensive if you start chasing precision. Precision is an expensive mistress and she's a bitch.

 

[Coolhand]

Sorry for introducing another variable but what is the run out of the C Gauge BEFORE you place a case on the rollers to check ?
I borrowed a 21st C , C gauge , the first thing I did was borrow an Interapid Test Indicator from work to replace the one on the gauge.
I also borrowed some Class Z pin gauges with a .00004 tolerance limit and a .00002 roundness limit. So these pins are pretty straight and round!
Placed the pin gauge on the rollers and set up the indicator, that gave me the roller run out. I did this about 2 years back and can't quite recall what the roller run out was but the idea was to keep this in mind when checking neck run out.
As I use a Warner Custom .308 FL die,my necks are pretty damn good around 0.0005-0.0007'' and what gain may be made by neck turning I figure the time and effort is a diminished return.

regards
Mike.

 

[Danattherock]

Dan, welcome to the club...and thanks for making me laugh! I know exactly where you are coming from. Just curious, and maybe you already said this and I missed it, but have you used your C-gauge on the INSIDE of your cases to see whats going on there? That's agood thing about the 21st Century...you can measure both the outside and the inside of the neck for the wobbles.
Maybe you and I should see if we can get a group discount on Valium. ) Until the weather lets me get out and shoot, I will probably continue to become more and more crazy about this stuff because it is all I have to do!

Lord no. My heads about to pop off my shoulders now. But I am curious which one, ID or OD, matters most, if not both. I hear about neck turning but the focus appears to be on the OD.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

joe R,

Having said that, two things that will improve your brass preparation are:
1. flash hole de-burring and
2. neck turning.

Precision is an expensive mistress and she's a bitch.

End quote...



No kidding man. I'm up for it. The only reason I'm interested is because it's such a challenge.

As for neck turning, suggest a tool. Amyone using 21st Century mini lathe?


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

First thing, you gotta find where your runout is introduced.

In my experience, most runout comes from the sizing die. .004 on sized brass is bad way to start. With that much neck runout, your bullet runout is gonna be bad. Prove it to yourself: size 5 pieces with the expander, and 5 without. Measure.

Most guys remove the sizing button, but if your sizing die is a standard FL die, that'll leave you with way too much neck tension. Hence, bushing dies.

Next would be your seater. Again test it yourself. You can play with 0-rings, rotating the cartridge a couple quarter turns during seating, etc. I prefer the wilson arbor press seaters for a multitude of reasons.

Next would be your case necks. Unturned brass has varying thickness in the necks. When you size the neck, that inconsistency is pushed to the inside (e.g. - the outsize of the neck is concentric, the inside isn't). Seat a bullet and and it won't likely be concentric to the case body.

Concentricity is a deep dark rabbit hole. You have to decide how far you're willing to go. The law of diminishing returns does apply.

-nosualc

Thanks again man. A little birdie told me via PM that a Lee neck collet along with a body sizing, sans expander, may alleviate many of my woes. Along with the Forster Ultra getting fixed and returned to me, I'm eager to see what kind of improvement might be realized.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

Dan,

can I offer a little counsel? First, you are the first I have seen in print actually admit the heart-burn inducing aspect of a C-gauge. As a customer service person who regularly talks with folks about the dreaded word, (Concentricity) I often mull how Prozac should be included in every gauge box. You are a brave man to admit it! And there is a short two step program that involves 1) decision 2) ebay ;D

That said lets point out a few other things:

If loading "perfect" ammo is a significant part of your enjoyment, then a c-gauge is a friend. However, unless you are a super shoot candidate it will not be as cost effective improvement as say, spending the same money on good brass and bullets to practice with. I say this because I note that at the end of the season (despite barrel wear, etc) my gun always shoots better than at the beginning!

I should also point out a small fact:
Brass that is fired in a great chamber will not have run-out because it was molten when it formed in that chamber. When you cold swage it (oops, size it in a die) every "defect" in the brass will be chased right out to the neck. Neck turning will not fix brass that has thin spots in the wall. Buy good brass...

Also, give some thought to the fact that if you go to a carbide sizing button, the bearing surface is much shorter, and frankly, the steel ones tend to create less run-out.

I guess what I am getting at is you simply have to decide for yourself if the "c-issue" is worth the joys and pains, or if your shooting really improves because of or for lack of it.

Either way, enjoy the game, but don't stress to much.

Snert

Thanks for the insightful post. Frankly, I'm not convinced that eliminating runout will make me shoot any better groups at all. My skill level and equipment may not yet be up to par. But it's personal now and I'm not going to stop until I am rolling out 1-2 thou loads.

My skill level behind the press (and the rifle) will be much higher this time next year. I'm looking at dropping about $5,000 in a setup I can compete in long distance events within a 3-4 hour radius from my home. Lots of wonderful Saturday's in my near future. Got to start somewhere.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

I think it would be much wiser to get as much trigger time and learn proper pull technique, stop flinching which is very hard if it is an issue, start paying attention to the wind and mirage and read all you can about the last 2 subjects I mentioned. Are you shooting off a bipod or a rest with a bag? Are you manhandling the rifle during your firing sequence. You have to be consistent about each aspect to get good at what you do. If you use a bipod , are you loading it properly? Read tony boyers book and david tubs book for many noteworthy aspects of our sport.What powders are you using?

I am working equally hard on these areas as well, just not talking about it here of course. Archer/arrow, couldn't agree more. I'm picking up a swivel Harris with lock lever any day.

What is giving me more trouble is an affordable front rest. I saw the Caldwell fire control or similar name, $200 or so on Amazon, has the control arm. Anyone familiar? Any other suggestions?

I received a nice Protektor rear bag just the other day, got two protektor pillow bags and a brick bag as well. Need a front rest desperately. I bought a sweet Weibad rear bag with poly fill to shoot/practice prone with the Harris. I need a better set up for load development.


Dan

 

[Danattherock]

o-ring under the shell holder as requested...

Notice the o-ring is just above the silver press ram shaft.

Thanks for the PM and the image. Will try the O rings for sure. Appreciate you taking the time to share so willingly what surely took you a long time to learn. Very appreciative.



Dan

 

[Joe R]

Danattherock said:

joe R,

Having said that, two things that will improve your brass preparation are:
1. flash hole de-burring and
2. neck turning.

Precision is an expensive mistress and she's a bitch.

End quote...


No kidding man. I'm up for it. The only reason I'm interested is because it's such a challenge.

As for neck turning, suggest a tool. Amyone using 21st Century mini lathe?


Dan

Most people turn necks with the hand held turners, some people use the 21st Century mini lathe. Both of those solutions are workable. I believe that anything worth doing is worth doing well and I found that the best way to turn necks is a Gracey Neck Shaver. I can turn 100 case (.308) in about 15 minutes. It does an excellent job and gives me more of the one thing no one can buy: time.

Here's a link to the best neck shaving tool there is http://www.matchprep.com/shaver.htm like everything else in this game precision is not accidental or free.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[Joe R]

Danattherock said:

Quote from: nosualc on Today at 01:30 PM

First thing, you gotta find where your runout is introduced.

In my experience, most runout comes from the sizing die. .004 on sized brass is bad way to start. With that much neck runout, your bullet runout is gonna be bad. Prove it to yourself: size 5 pieces with the expander, and 5 without. Measure.

Most guys remove the sizing button, but if your sizing die is a standard FL die, that'll leave you with way too much neck tension. Hence, bushing dies.

Next would be your seater. Again test it yourself. You can play with 0-rings, rotating the cartridge a couple quarter turns during seating, etc. I prefer the wilson arbor press seaters for a multitude of reasons.

Next would be your case necks. Unturned brass has varying thickness in the necks. When you size the neck, that inconsistency is pushed to the inside (e.g. - the outsize of the neck is concentric, the inside isn't). Seat a bullet and and it won't likely be concentric to the case body.

Concentricity is a deep dark rabbit hole. You have to decide how far you're willing to go. The law of diminishing returns does apply.

-nosualc


Thanks again man. A little birdie told me via PM that a Lee neck collet along with a body sizing, sans expander, may alleviate many of my woes. Along with the Forster Ultra getting fixed and returned to me, I'm eager to see what kind of improvement might be realized.


Dan

That was a very wise little bird to tell you about the Lee Collect Die (LCD) and a body sizing die. Do that and you take a big step forward.

But the LCD instructions will tell that LCDs works best with brass that has been neck turned. There's those dreaded words again: "neck turned"

Somewhere along the way you'll have to start annealing to avoid splitting those necks, but that is an easy and cheap thing to do.

Then you'll have to deal with neck tension (through the LCDs) suitable for your rifle. And on it goes.... ;D

Kindest regards,

Joe