Ruining cases by Annealing

[John Russell]

The reason that WE do not use 900 degrees...

I don't know who the "we" is, or who decides who the WE is... but I have been annealing case necks since 1971, I do about 2,000 a year now, but I did more in past years. I have never had a bullet loose, or a case failure. So maybe some of the WE aren't up to speed on annealing.

There seems to be an attitude that there is only one "official" way to do stuff here - there are many ways to do things and most are equally adequate.

 

[stifffingers]

You guys are making this too hard. First of all, if you look at all the annealers they all are time driven not temperature. That should tell you something.

I have had every annealer out there with the Ken Light being the only exception (MRB, AMP, Annealeez, BenchSource, etc...). They all have pros and cons. Unfortunately for me, I keep going back to the drill and socket, but I am hopeful that someone will come up with a good reliable annealer. The AMP was close, but my brass kept getting stuck in the shell holder, plus I don't like one at the time system. I'm hoping someone will make a commercial version of the Gina-Erik induction annealer.

In the meantime here's a paper that a member has written that should answer a lot of questions.

Kindest regards,

Joe

I have an AMP and the only cases that got stuck in the shell holder were case from firing hot loads. we all push the boundaries with charges in the pursuit of accuracy and the webs can change with too much pressure, thus the rim cannalure can change.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I have an AMP and the only cases that got stuck in the shell holder were case from firing hot loads. we all push the boundaries with charges in the pursuit of accuracy and the webs can change with too much pressure, thus the rim cannalure can change.

If the extractor groove is growing to the point where it gets stuck in the shell holder, I certainly agree that that's pushing the boundaries.

 

[BoydAllen]

So I take it that you do use 900 degrees? That makes me curious about your method and application(s) By we, I meant the people that I know that anneal including some that I have helped get set up and who have had very successful results. I don't anneal because it has not proven to be an advantage for the short range group game, and while it has been a while since I shot a match, I stay in close contact with those that do, and almost all of my range time is spent shooting a 6PPC rifle that falls within the rules for a LV or Sporter. Do your necks glow at any time during your process. In the future I will have to remember that you are apparently triggered by the use of the word we. Duly noted.

 

[LHSmith]

.

I have an AMP and the only cases that got stuck in the shell holder were case from firing hot loads. we all push the boundaries with charges in the pursuit of accuracy and the webs can change with too much pressure, thus the rim cannalure can change.

I agree. I find it rather odd that one would revert back to the torch and socket method with all it's variables without performing a simple fix to a feeding problem with the machine.

 

[chop house]

If the extractor groove is growing to the point where it gets stuck in the shell holder,

i have been in process of salvaging some 6.5x55 brass (norma) with unknown history. first, necks are thick... close to 0.015. brass is stubborn - hence the annealing tutorial. AND a few won't fit in either of my number 2 shell holders.

You just reminded me to put 'borescope inside case' on my todo list! i did a quick check of the flash holes, but forget to check for insipients - or however it's spelled.

thanks

 

[LHSmith]

i have been in process of salvaging some 6.5x55 brass (norma) with unknown history. first, necks are thick... close to 0.015. brass is stubborn - hence the annealing tutorial. AND a few won't fit in either of my number 2 shell holders.

You just reminded me to put 'borescope inside case' on my todo list! i did a quick check of the flash holes, but forget to check for insipients - or however it's spelled.

thanks

The swede brass has a narrow extraction groove and larger head diameter. It may be this dimensional quirk that prevents the brass from fitting the s/h's.

 

[riflewoman]

I kinda sorta tried the vise grips thing, didn't really like the (lack of) feel. looking for some comments on the following:

using a mic measure the neck od using the instruments clutch. then, purposely compress to a reading a couple thou (or more?) smaller by turning the mic barrel, not the clutch. may not want to use your best instrument for this. relax the pressure and remeasure with the clutch (just make sure you don't rotate the case). what the standard is, or should be, i have no clue??? depends on brass composition, neck thickness, and state of anneal.

similar could be done with a vernier... getting the feel thru the thumbwheel as you compress the neck?

Take a drill .020 smaller than bullet diameter and a new or once fired case. Put the drill shank into the case mouth and the squeeze the case mouth with a bench vise until it grabs the drill. Take the pressure off and measure the deformation. Do the same to your cases and see if there’s any difference. If it is dead soft you won’t get any spring back at all. In a factory new case you get about 0.005.

Even if it is dead soft two firing cycles will put about 20-30% cold work in the necks.

 

[chop house]

dimensional quirk

i was hoping that was the 'case'.. they look good inside

 

[chop house]

In a factory new case you get about 0.005.

excellent. thanks

 

[dcali]

There is no bad zone. There is simply time and temperature. The hotter you go be faster the annealing will happen. If you want to catch a harness other than fully annealed, you’re going to have to be very consistent with your times and temperatures, because small changes in either can trigger large drops in hardness.

 

[fyrewall]

At this point I will admit that I have a deep psychological need to improve things - including heat & flames.

1. should annealing brass have any affect on fitting any case including the odd-ball 6.5X55 having fatter rim body dimensions, to previously used shell holder that would indicate something next to a total melt down. It is real bad to subject brass heads to grain size altering heat because the needed natural cold-work hardness will be destroyed and pressures up to 65 K psi will make for some kind of blow-up.

2. I have my own method of cooking necks into part of recrystallization stage and seeing this done provides me with a certain sense of satisfaction to alleviate the potential of split necks and to get some uniformity between max cold work & abject max grain softness.

My personal technique employs a loop type flame tip that the "Wood Chuck Den" guy sold me for about $40. It fits over a .5 inch common propane torch tip. When the propane is turned on and lit off. ten tiny jets of flame come out of 10, .050 holes inside of the loop. The flame tips are then adjusted so the tips of the darker blue flame (the hottest part) touch the brass neck. Brass is arrayed in rows standing in 3/4 deep water in a Walde Marte cookie pan.

The sequence is:

hiss-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-sissstt-hiss-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-tick-sisstt-hiss, then more of the same. For smaller cases like the .204R, six ticks are used.

hiss is the sound of air being aspirated into the torch tip to enable air/oxygen mixing, tick is the sound of the second hand on my cheap alarm clock, and sisstt is sound of the hot necked brass being dumped into cold water.

Taking a look at my circular flame tip I see commonly available brass fittings, .25 copper tubing, and an end squashed flat & sealed with solder. Any Home Despot store should have this stuff.

I must admit the salt bath annealing/grain size altering device does have some appeal.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

stifffingers,
I appreciate your concern. My 7SAUM Norma brass getting stuck in the shell holder is a known issue with the brass. I'm running a warm load (180 grain at 3020 fps) but not hot. I'm on my 6th firing with the brass and everything is good. Its just that some case head are too tight to fit the shell holder, that's a something that Norma needs to fix. Maybe if Lapua or Alpha munitions get on the SAUM wagon, they will fix it. My issue with the AMP is one of personal preference, nothing to do with the annealer.

Kindest regarsds,

Joe

I didn't realize that this is an issue to Norma. I would think Norma would be aware and that it could be easily addressed. Even if it's not an easy one, it's a needed one, if so.