role of your less accurate rifles?
- Thread starter kzin
- Start date
Jimmy James
Silver $$ Contributor
I have a couple benchrest guns and a couple F class guns. I have other hunter class guns but I dont shoot hunter class. They are currently just fun guns. I wont have a gun that wont shoot inside an inch. I have a couple 20" 700's that are fun to take to the 1000yd steel range. My priorities for guns are constantly changing. I get bored easily. Same with shoties and pistols.
LOL, I was thinking in terms of clear upgrades like savage FTR -> full custom
The ethics of what to do with a lemon is another question.
Yeah, that's a fine point of the question I brought up.
One obvious answer was mentioned - to transfer wear and tear from the best rifle to a less expensive one that has no current job otherwise.
Another is to get some variety while still keeping up trigger time.
But your point is definitely valid also.
Freak out liberal co-workers with the size of my 'arsenal' !
I use them for training
Rapid fire sitting and rapid fire prone are hard on barrels.
DarkStar
There are those who have crossfired. . .
Life’s too short to worry about wearing out a nice rifle. That’s why the barrels can be replaced.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
If you compete with a 1/4” rifle but practice with a 1/2” rifle youll never get better. Your 1/4”er will turn into a 3/8”er and youll be satisfied. The whole time youre practicing youll be thinking well that was the gun that wasnt my poor form. Never save anything- barrels are a component.
I came here hoping to be convinced this isn't true. Other than demoting the rifle to a discipline where the hold is well over 1/2 I can't come up with anything. Thanks a lot
My nerd brain jumps to wondering if it would be even better to practice with a 1/8 rifle, even if you had to go back to 1/4 for competition.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Much of that depends on your chosen discipline. For F-Class, THE limiting factor is reading the wind conditions. The difference in score in challenging wind conditions between a rifle that shoots 0.25 MOA and one that shoots 0.4 MOA is likely not going to be worth talking about, except over the [very] long term. Further, you can absolutely improve your wind reading skill with the 0.4 MOA rifle. Why? Because the precision is not the limiting factor, reading the wind conditions is. By practicing with the 0.4 MOA rifle, you can reduce wear on the 0.25 MOA barrel and it might last a little longer. There is no perfect "philosophy", but this one works. Ask yourself how many times that someone you know has lucked into a "hummer" barrel, then shot it out long before its time doing stupid stuff? I don't know a single one that wasn't sorry afterward they had burnt out a great barrel doing something other than winning matches.
I don’t know about this. The barrels I’ve seen shoot .4 at 100 don’t hold anywhere close to .4 at 600. In theory .4 would be 2.4” at 600. Real world 600 yard groups with a barrel like that are typically more like 5 or 6”. To get to a real 2” rifle at 600 it needs to hold around .15-.2” at 100. If you have a 6” rifle at 600 you’re going to be dropping a lot of frustrating 9s and be questioning your wind calls whereas if you have a gun that would actually hold 2” at 600 and it’s going where you expect you can trust your wind calls much more.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Rifles that can routinely hold one quarter MOA or less at 100 yd rarely (if ever) shoot 20 Xs at 600 yd either (i.e. half MOA X-ring). Not even close. If they did, we'd see cleans with 20+ Xs regularly, and that simply doesn't happen You're arguing about trivial a difference difference in precision when a missed wind call can easily put you into the 8- or even 7-ring. That is an error in shot placement of 1.5 to 2 MOA. A rifle that will consistently hold 0.5 MOA at 100 yd is easily capable of shooting cleans with good X-counts at 600 yd on a perfectly calm day.
It's all about limiting sources of error. As I stated earlier, the long strings of fire we shoot in F-Class mean that if the wind conditions are moderate to challenging, your ability to make good wind calls will usually be by far the limiting source of error, not a small difference in precision in groups fired at 100 yd. Now if you're talking about a rifle that will only hold 0.75, or even 1.0 MOA at 100 yd, then I completely agree with you. Even so, exactly where the precision "cut-off" is located is difficult to say. Bryan Litz has done a number of analyses of the effects of precision of a rifle/load on scores in different wind conditions using computer simulations, and his findings are in good agreement with what I'm stating here. As a general observation, I believe you can effectively practice and improve wind reading skills, as well as work on your form with a rifle/load that will hold about half a minute (or less) at 100 yd. If others disagree with that opinion, that's fine, it's not something that can be proven beyond a shadow of doubt. I'm perfectly happy when my competitors burn out their best barrels practicing.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I came here hoping to be convinced this isn't true. Other than demoting the rifle to a discipline where the hold is well over 1/2 I can't come up with anything. Thanks a lot
My nerd brain jumps to wondering if it would be even better to practice with a 1/8 rifle, even if you had to go back to 1/4 for competition.
No if you have a 1/8” rifle for practice and a 1/4” one to compete with you do the hot swap and your 1/4” gun is relegated to the safe.
Warren Dean
Team Savage F-TR
Yeah I’m going to agree with dusty here. I switched Bullets and my 100 yard 3shot
Groups started repeating at 1/8 instead of 1/4 and f class scores went up meaningfully. In theory that shouldn’t make much difference for f class. But remember the difference between first and 5th place is often decided by a point or two or even x count. When you got a 1/4 rifle it won’t hold the 1.5” it should in theory hold and you’ll have fliers in the 9 that may have clipped the 10 then you are trying to convince yourself it was wind and justify the placement when it was just a bad flier. Next thing you know you got in your own head and dropped 2 9s instead of 1
Groups started repeating at 1/8 instead of 1/4 and f class scores went up meaningfully. In theory that shouldn’t make much difference for f class. But remember the difference between first and 5th place is often decided by a point or two or even x count. When you got a 1/4 rifle it won’t hold the 1.5” it should in theory hold and you’ll have fliers in the 9 that may have clipped the 10 then you are trying to convince yourself it was wind and justify the placement when it was just a bad flier. Next thing you know you got in your own head and dropped 2 9s instead of 1
Define accurate or less accurate? It entirely depends on the use of the rifle. A CMP Service Rifle will never be as accurate as consistently as a Benchrest rifle. I don’t expect my 300 Weatherby Model 70 to be as accurate as my M1A in a 20 shot 600 yard match. But the 300 would be my choice for elk or moose at 400 yards. My deer/elk rifle (when I’m hunting deer in elk country) is a Mauser actioned 30-06. It shoots well enough. I see no reason to change or to change my outlook.
When I competed in CMP Service Rifle I had two nearly identical rifles. One did shoot better than the other very slightly. I used that one at Perry and practiced with the less accurate.
When I competed in CMP Service Rifle I had two nearly identical rifles. One did shoot better than the other very slightly. I used that one at Perry and practiced with the less accurate.
Of course.
I was daydreaming of practicing with a more inherently accurate rifle that wasn't LEGAL for the class you're practicing for.
Hard to do for f-class because what's legal is very accurate already.
Maybe using an f-class barrel on different gear to practice for vintage sniper or ar-tactical.
It would be tricky to set up something both more accurate and close enough for the practice to carry over.
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