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Rimfire tuners question

Being new to a tuner, I need an answer. After tuning , using cheap Ammo , will I need to keep adjusting to different settings each time I decide to change ammo? I really don’t want to “waste” match Ammo while in the initial tuner set up. Thanks for the help.
 
Being new to a tuner, I need an answer. After tuning , using cheap Ammo , will I need to keep adjusting to different settings each time I decide to change ammo? I really don’t want to “waste” match Ammo while in the initial tuner set up. Thanks for the help.
I hate to tell you this but you need the best shooting ammo to tune with. best being what your rifle can shoot consistently. if you do it the way you are talking about, you will wear out the threads from all the adjustments you will be making.
with 200 rds. or less you should be able to find a setting. but that is if everything on the rifle is correct. tuning is a complete package. best way to find out what you have is shoot some groups without the tuner and if say it can consistently shoot with all shots touching then I would say you have something you can work with.

I put it this way, you have a top fuel car and you try and tune it with gas even with super grade, it will never run to it's full potential when you do use nitro fuel!

Lee
 
I recently purchased a variety of ammo try. The lower end stuff was just over $5/box. The highest was almost $18/box. I have been shooting red box SK with decent success but it is pricey now as well. I have several bricks of Aguila that I was hoping to use to set up this tuner. When I bought those cases, the price was really low. .............so far I’ve tried a box of Eley Club and a box of Eley Target neither of which impressed me, especially with the two misfires in the “ Target “. The next step up is Black box Eley. ......... Another question: If I find a brand and lot number that will pretty consistently print a five shot group at 50 yds. that measures 1/2” outside, is that the best that I should expect ? Thanks for the input.
 
I recently purchased a variety of ammo try. The lower end stuff was just over $5/box. The highest was almost $18/box. I have been shooting red box SK with decent success but it is pricey now as well. I have several bricks of Aguila that I was hoping to use to set up this tuner. When I bought those cases, the price was really low. .............so far I’ve tried a box of Eley Club and a box of Eley Target neither of which impressed me, especially with the two misfires in the “ Target “. The next step up is Black box Eley. ......... Another question: If I find a brand and lot number that will pretty consistently print a five shot group at 50 yds. that measures 1/2” outside, is that the best that I should expect ? Thanks for the input.
Topwater, if you want the best out of the rifle you will need to see what ammo it likes best. buying by cost alone will not get you what you want. higher cost on the better match ammo means better quality, but not consistency. only with lot testing will you find the consistency.
if 1/2" oto is with a tuner, more then likely there are mechanical issues with the rifle, if the groups were shot with ammo the rifle shoots best with. notice I keep saying shoots best with, as you can't make it shoot best with ammo that just can't shoot at all.
here is an example, the rifle that shot this tuner target is a factory Anschutz that is 45-years old. without a tuner it can shoot sub-.200 groups, but not consistently. after it was tuned and was tested at Lapua's Mesa tunnel it shot a 11.86mm 10-shot group oto that is 0.466 for 10 shots not 5
also I used 58 rds. to find that 85 setting. each group is 3-shots and the tuner was moved out 5-clicks at a time. this was 2 years and 11-days ago, since that time I found the setting of 90 to be the best for this rifle.

Lee
 

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You are on the right track!! I agree with some of the notes above but here are my thoughts and my personal experience.

The objective of tuning is 1) to compensate for the velocity variation by setting the barrel vibritions such that slow rounds, which leave slightly later are launched at a slightly higher muzzle deflection or angle. In turn, faster rounds, which leave the muzzle slightly earlier, are launched at a lower muzzle deflection or angle. This gives the slower round a little boost to enable them to hit closer to center with their slower velocity and longer time of flight and match the faster rounds shorter time of flight (less drop) and land on the paper atthe same elevation. 2) To find the best tunner location that minimizes the muzzle deflection horizontally to make the smallest horizontal dispersion.

There are challenges with this. 1) Its a balancing act as you move the tuner the groups will migrate from vertical groups to horzontal groups - you will need to find your setting for the smallest, round, groups. 2) since the errors we are talking about are small shot execution and environmental conditions can overwelm the effects of the tuner. Tuning setup is very difficult with good ammo because the effects are really small and difficult to measure. Thus requiring lots of ammo, time, and cost.

So you will need almost perfect conditions up to and inlcuding a quality bench vise and no wind to start. But that will be a problem for most, thus a significant source of added variation. You will need to setup or on a bench or sling w/sandbags. For Ammo, buy the lower grade version of the ammunition you desire to use (eley edge or below, lapua/sk xxx, ...) as well as a couple lots of the good stuff (black, tennex, or midas+, midas,)

Setting up the tuner: Use the cheaper stuff (with wider velocity spread), at the distance of interest, to systematically map the tuner response. Move in small increments, shoot a couple 10shot groups at each setting, record and measure each... You will need to look at a number of the groups, not just individual groups to see the effects. As you move the tuner you will likely see the groups go from vertical to horizontal and then back to vertical.. Since the velocity spread is wider, you will be able to see and measure differences in the groups with lower number of rounds fired... In that process you will have at least 2 'nodes' that balance the horzontal and verical for the smallest round groups. this is your tuner setting for this velocity range....

Now shoot the good stuff... find which lot shoots best.... and call it DONE.

Buy a BUNCH of the lot that shoots well.

Resist messing with the tuner and don't change anything that is mounted to the barrel...... If you move the front sight position, the tune changes... if you move the tuner postion the tune changes. Mine is still set from 4 years ago... across 5 lots of the same brand of ammo (similar velocity ranges) with 400-40x performance

The process above could take you a day and 150 rounds or 6 weeks and 1500rnds depending our your ability to shoot 'small' and environmental conditions impacting your groups.

So, here is the real answer!

Box your gun up, send it to Eley (Winters, TX) or Lapua (Ariz or Ohio) and let them do it ... They have the bench vises and tunnels and the right ammo to get the job done. you won't regret it..

Hope this helps
 
Lee, on your "tuning session" image what does "CB" mean?
CB=Cold bore flier. which that wasn't the case, the firing pin spring had to be changed and the bolt had to be what I called blue printed, so the firing pin has free movement. surprisingly after years of use the pin guides will wear in and if you take apart the firing pin assembly and don't put it back it can bind and cause ignition problems.
this goes back to tuning and being all part of the package, as I had mentioned in another post here.

Lee
 
Hey, thanks guys. It’s ironic that you both mentioned the testing. My buddy got a Bergera 14 from Santa. He wants us to take our rifles to the Lapua test site in Ohio. It would probably involve an overnight stay but may be well worth the effort. If we do, should I remove my tuner before they test it ?
 
Hey, thanks guys. It’s ironic that you both mentioned the testing. My buddy got a Bergera 14 from Santa. He wants us to take our rifles to the Lapua test site in Ohio. It would probably involve an overnight stay but may be well worth the effort. If we do, should I remove my tuner before they test it ?
Topwater, If you are confident on the tuner setting for your rifle leave it on. confident meaning it can repeat groups size consistently. doesn't have to be sub-.200 but it does need to be consistent.
remember when you are testing lots, you are testing ammo performance and not your tune. meaning, you will not get the best results if your rifle is not tuned.
IMO if you go to the testing centers, you should already know what the best your rifle can shoot, and should look for lots that can beat your best or at least equal them.

by the way what are you shooting?

Lee
 
We have yet to get our rifles tested. I’m shooting a CZ 457 MTR. The Ammo I have on hand is: Aguila solid point, Win.T22, Eley target, Eley match, SK rifle match, Federal Gold Medal ultra match, Lapua center X, Lapua Midas + & RWS R50. The more I mull this over in my mind, the more I think that I need to start all over. I had my tuner legnth set long, to almost as far out as it would go. I have multiple boxes of the Eley match, Fed ultra match, T22, SK match and Aguila. I believe that, being in too much of a hurry, I may have done a deficient job in Initially setting up the tuner.

Stitch
 
Topwater, if you want the best out of the rifle you will need to see what ammo it likes best. buying by cost alone will not get you what you want. higher cost on the better match ammo means better quality, but not consistency. only with lot testing will you find the consistency.
if 1/2" oto is with a tuner, more then likely there are mechanical issues with the rifle, if the groups were shot with ammo the rifle shoots best with. notice I keep saying shoots best with, as you can't make it shoot best with ammo that just can't shoot at all.
here is an example, the rifle that shot this tuner target is a factory Anschutz that is 45-years old. without a tuner it can shoot sub-.200 groups, but not consistently. after it was tuned and was tested at Lapua's Mesa tunnel it shot a 11.86mm 10-shot group oto that is 0.466 for 10 shots not 5
also I used 58 rds. to find that 85 setting. each group is 3-shots and the tuner was moved out 5-clicks at a time. this was 2 years and 11-days ago, since that time I found the setting of 90 to be the best for this rifle.

Lee
Can you give an estimate as to what the numerical value increments of 5 mean in measured movement? Do you think 5 is .005 of movement for instance or do you think its more like .020.
Trying to decide what increments I should move berween groups when starting in on my first attempt at tuning.
 
Can you give an estimate as to what the numerical value increments of 5 mean in measured movement? Do you think 5 is .005 of movement for instance or do you think its more like .020.
Trying to decide what increments I should move berween groups when starting in on my first attempt at tuning.
One click will move the tuner .001
 
We have yet to get our rifles tested. I’m shooting a CZ 457 MTR. The Ammo I have on hand is: Aguila solid point, Win.T22, Eley target, Eley match, SK rifle match, Federal Gold Medal ultra match, Lapua center X, Lapua Midas + & RWS R50. The more I mull this over in my mind, the more I think that I need to start all over. I had my tuner legnth set long, to almost as far out as it would go. I have multiple boxes of the Eley match, Fed ultra match, T22, SK match and Aguila. I believe that, being in too much of a hurry, I may have done a deficient job in Initially setting up the tuner.

Stitch
Stitch, I would save the Aguilla & T22 for another discipline.
Don't make too much out of this, its really not that hard. Whatever tuner your using start on the high side of your lower setting. If a Harrell's, say 50. Shoot a 3 or 5 shot group. Now you can go out in small increments & shoot another. If a Harrel's, say 10 clicks, shoot another, & so on. Some will do a whole revolution, or more. You will see what happens to the groups as you go & when things look really good keep going. You'll find another. Shoot a 10 shot group on your best settings & you'll like one more than the others. From there I go in & out in single click increments 5 clicks & see if you like something better.
You can also Google the Purdy prescription & get a length in which to start with. It didn't work for me early on so I don't bother with it now. For many it seems to work.
Once you've decided on your best setting shoot another brand & see if the groups are the basic same. If not they shouldn't be more than a few clicks off in either direction.
You shouldn't have gone thru more than 2 or 3 boxes tops.

Keith
 
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Can you give an estimate as to what the numerical value increments of 5 mean in measured movement? Do you think 5 is .005 of movement for instance or do you think its more like .020.
Trying to decide what increments I should move berween groups when starting in on my first attempt at tuning.
On the Harrell tuner 1-click is suppose to be 0.001 I have never measured it, as I am not concerned about the actual amount it moves. I always go by what happens on paper. so 5-clicks should be 0.005, also I forgot to mention I use the true zero of the tuner, meaning I turn the tuner in even if it is past the zero mark and start from there, most will be 10-15 clicks in from zero.
for anyone that will make their first attempt to use a tuner, I would shoot some groups with the best lot for that rifle without the tuner. this will give a good base line for when you do put the tuner on and start to tune.

Lee
 
On the Harrell tuner 1-click is suppose to be 0.001 I have never measured it, as I am not concerned about the actual amount it moves. I always go by what happens on paper. so 5-clicks should be 0.005, also I forgot to mention I use the true zero of the tuner, meaning I turn the tuner in even if it is past the zero mark and start from there, most will be 10-15 clicks in from zero.
for anyone that will make their first attempt to use a tuner, I would shoot some groups with the best lot for that rifle without the tuner. this will give a good base line for when you do put the tuner on and start to tune.

Lee
Thank you. I made a tuner but need to go revisit what thread I used (1/32 i think) to calculate the length per rev. I think I marked it out in 10 degree incriments which would be .003ish per mark. That said I didnt know how finicky these things are.
I initially played with this one in .25 turns (.0075ish) per group and it for sure opened and closed groups up markedly at times. I went out to three turns and it was damn cold so I didnt get to involved.
Waiting for 40+ weather as this lapua seems to shoot very poorly below 32 in my rifle.
 
Thank you. I made a tuner but need to go revisit what thread I used (1/32 i think) to calculate the length per rev. I think I marked it out in 10 degree incriments which would be .003ish per mark. That said I didnt know how finicky these things are.
I initially played with this one in .25 turns (.0075ish) per group and it for sure opened and closed groups up markedly at times. I went out to three turns and it was damn cold so I didnt get to involved.
Waiting for 40+ weather as this lapua seems to shoot very poorly below 32 in my rifle.
I believe the Harrell is threaded 1" 40 tpi, there is an advantage of not having a set amount you can only move the tuner out by. I am looking to make a tuner with dual adjustments, where I can make extremely fine adjustments without changing the original setting. currently I use O-rings to make those adjustments.
tuning as it is called is about barrel timing and timing the bullet's exit with weight.
finding how much is what you are doing by adjusting the tuner out or in, IME using the least amount of weight needed, has given me the best results. 90 is the highest setting on my best shooting rifle, with a tuner that weighs only 4.30 oz.

Lee
 
You know, you ask 10 different guys, you'll get 10 different ways to get there...
Lee's convinced below 90 & under 5 oz. is best.
I stick every tuner I put on on 166 & find tune 10 clicks either side of it...
Others live only between 200 & 225....
Some use noodles & bloop tubes...
Ask all of us & we're all right!LOL
You're gonna have to set it yourself & form your own opinions because as far as I'm concerned we're all full of it, but it works for us, sometimes, not always....
Again, don't make this any more difficult than it needs to be. Shoot the gun. It will tell you what it likes.

Keith
 
Hey, guys. Thanks so much for your input. This is one of the great things about this site, folks are always willing to share experiences and information. In the short few years I’ve been a member, I have met a bunch of GREAT folks. Thanks everyone. I will post results on this subject in the future.

Stitch
 
Hey, guys. Thanks so much for your input. This is one of the great things about this site, folks are always willing to share experiences and information. In the short few years I’ve been a member, I have met a bunch of GREAT folks. Thanks everyone. I will post results on this subject in the future.

Stitch
I hope you realize that every change you make in your tuner you will have to shoot 50 shots and statistically analyze them before you can know if your change means anything. Anything less and all you have is random garbage.
 

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