Rimfire barrels

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I said "Shooters should be careful about reading too much from a single group."

It's surprising that any serious shooter, especially someone like Lee, who has a number of years of .22LR bench and lot testing experience, would take the opposite position that shooters should be reading a great deal about their rifle and ammo from a single very good group. According to that view, one group proves much about the rifle, ammo, and shooter.

It's a rather myopic point of view. Why? One single group proves nothing by itself. If it did, it would be possible for shooters to evaluate a rifle or ammo by shooting a single group and making firm conclusions based on five shots. Random acts of accuracy occur. The single targets I posted are just that.

grauhanen,

Believe or not if you know what the rifle/barrel is capable of shooting you can with 1 single 5-shot group decide if a lot of ammo is worth buying. it would be no different then a 10-shot group at the test center. I have a lot of CX #3182 that may be the best lot I have come across. a friend gave me a partial box from a bunch of lots he got to test. I had a few months before gotten 5 case from Lapua. I shot one 5-shot group that measured 0.005 ctc the best group this rifle has shot prior to that .005 group was .007 back in 2016
but it has shot 0.040 without a tuner,10-shot groups of 0.156, done 4- 5-shot groups that avg. .120 ctc and numerous other very small groups with a wide range of lots.
because I know what the rifle can do and has done, I had the confidence to make the buy base on 1 5-shot group.
and that is my point if you know and are completely confident on the rifle/barrel you can base decisions on a single group.

Lee

 

[Mark88]

I agree 100% about the one group totally. And when we shoot rimfire benchrest we do not shoot groups we shoot a whole card of 20 or 25 targets depending on the organization. I honestly think it was total luck she shot that group because we had no windflages set up. She was just shooting off a one piece PQP rest free recoil at a target 50 yards away and it was breezy. We were just out having fun at the range and I told her to shoot some 5 shot groups. She had other good groups on that card but that was the best.. I was shooting my 6br at a 100 yards and let's just say she smoked me as far as group size for the day! Lol

 

[grauhanen]

Lee, the point I made with which you disagreed was simply "Shooters should be careful about reading too much from a single group." I stand by what I said.

You may recall that I was referring to factory rifles with factory barrels shooting at places other than indoor testing facilities where the rifles or barreled actions are immobilized in a fixture or vise.

Elsewhere, and perhaps here, you've posted about the rifles you shoot. You test these custom barreled rifles at Lapua in Arizona, where the rifle or barreled actions are in a vise or fixture. You have barrels that you know are good, you know what results to expect, and when results are inconsistent with your experience you can recognize that. At Mesa, if they produce a single group with very good results that's very promising indeed and grounds to believe the ammo is good.

As you know, however, your Mesa experience is not equivalent to shooting a factory rifle outdoors without a fixture or vise. In those circumstances, one very good group is possible. But it's insufficient to give the same level of confidence that you can have at the indoor testing facility with your custom barrels. In other words, when outdoors with a factory rifle, shooters should be careful about reading too much from a single group.



.

 

[Mark88]

A .005 and .007 is absolutely amazing! I didn't think a group in these sizes were possible from a rimfire. When a rimfire is tuned and has the ammo it likes they are so much fun to shoot!!!! But having a capable rife and not finding that ammo will drive you crazy.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee, the point I made with which you disagreed was simply "Shooters should be careful about reading too much from a single group." I stand by what I said.

You may recall that I was referring to factory rifles with factory barrels shooting at places other than indoor testing facilities where the rifles or barreled actions are immobilized in a fixture or vise.

Elsewhere, and perhaps here, you've posted about the rifles you shoot. You test these custom barreled rifles at Lapua in Arizona, where the rifle or barreled actions are in a vise or fixture. You have barrels that you know are good, you know what results to expect, and when results are inconsistent with your experience you can recognize that. At Mesa, if they produce a single group with very good results that's very promising indeed and grounds to believe the ammo is good.

As you know, however, your Mesa experience is not equivalent to shooting a factory rifle outdoors without a fixture or vise. In those circumstances, one very good group is possible. But it's insufficient to give the same level of confidence that you can have at the indoor testing facility with your custom barrels. In other words, when outdoors with a factory rifle, shooters should be careful about reading too much from a single group.

grauhanen, Yes it is true I have rifles with custom barrels that shoot really well. but I have shot factory barreled rifles and even have one currently, a 1976 1413 how does does it shoot? shot off a Pappas rest it did a 11.86mm 10-shot group at Lapua's test tunnel the rifle was tested just as I shoot it off the bench free-recoil and with a bungee for RTB.
my custom barreled 1411 did 11mm a custom Falcon did 11.68mm the factory barreled Anschutz group was only 0.0338 bigger than the 1411 and just 0.007 bigger than the Falcon. both have benchmark 3G
because I knew how the factory barrel shot, it didn't surprise me that much of how well it did. only problem nothing at Lapua could better my base lot.
again if you know what to look for, it is possible to base what a rifle can do by a single group.
here is the very first target of groups I shot with this 1413 most will say it doesn't shoot very well going by the groups, but I shot them and I know why they are as they are. the 2 groups I notes told me this rifle had a lot of potential and the barrel was very capable. pictured is how I shot it that day, with TH cast butt stock I still got those 2 groups. you also notice I am not using my bungee because the set trigger didn't allow it.
I understand your warning about single groups, but as I have saw and experience there are exceptions and if you understand what you are seeing, you can make decisions based on that knowledge. even by a single group.

Lee

.

 

[dutch14]

I was once told that the NRA standard for comparison was 5 5 shot groups at distance.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

A .005 and .007 is absolutely amazing! I didn't think a group in these sizes were possible from a rimfire. When a rimfire is tuned and has the ammo it likes they are so much fun to shoot!!!! But having a capable rife and not finding that ammo will drive you crazy.

Mark88, Believe me I been there many times. ammo is the key to getting groups like I posted about, then the mechanical aspect of the rifle/barrel. with respect to what your rifle did, can it do it again I believe yes, but as I noted it took nearly 5-years for me to better my 0.007 group. but I had the knowledge of what it could do.
this is where my disagreement lays with grauhanen, I don't believe in one time anomalies if it did it once it can do it again.

Lee

 

[Mark88]

Was that with the same barrel or had you changed it during the 5 years of trying to better the .007?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Was that with the same barrel or had you changed it during the 5 years of trying to better the .007?

I am still shooting the same barrel a Benchmark 3-G HV reverse taper. the barrel was done by Evelio McDonald in Texas. he first put the barrel on it in 2013-2014? it had a Eley chamber and after about 2-years, I found out about the Nevius chamber and had him re-chamber it using that spec. this was 6-28-2015 since then I probably put 30-40K rounds through it, in addition to 10-15K of Eley
I have Benchmark to thank for producing a great barrel and Evelio for his skill. before I forget, Kevin Nevius as well for his information on his Lapua chamber specs.

Lee
P.S the 0.007 group was shot with SK Rifle match, I don't have a picture of the full target but before that .007 group it shot a 0.035 right after I shot the 0.007 as you can see, it really shows why RM is not as good as CX, but you get a few rounds that can produce really good groups.

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

I don't own a "custom built" .22 rimfire rifle, but that doesn't stop me from shooting and testing factory provided .22 rimfire rifles and pistols with various .22 rimfire ammunition that only the "unwashed masses" like myself can afford.
When a group, or groups come along like some of those I've shot from a factory purchased rifle, it proves to ME, that the capability is there:

This rifle arrived from a distributor, not a custom rifle builder:

The action has been pillar bedded and a Yo-Dave trigger kit installed, that's it. The ammunition is Norma-TAC 22, and I have bricks from 3 different lot #'s, that shoot pretty dang close to the same location, but not always the same group size, but way more than acceptable:

All groups were shot from a front rest and rabbit ear rear bag, no machine rest, outside on my range in back of my shop:

Now, does this rifle shoot groups like the "one-holer" above, with the ammunition mentioned, each and every time? Nope. But the groups it does shoot consistently are more than acceptable for the rifles purpose. So, it may be that some folks, who have way more than the $400.00, or so, I have invested in this rifle, and the $200.00+ in the optics set-up, will get a bit frazzled when, with the right combination, a rifle like this can indeed shoot excellent groups, it doesn't make much sense to me.
I'm not willing to invest many thousands of dollars in a "custom built" .22 rimfire bench rest rifle, so as for me, I get much more enjoyment shooting rifles affordable by us "common guys/gals" with ammunition that was $52.00 per brick during much less exasperating times.
And then, there's no need to carry around all the weight involved with equipment used at many have at the set-ups I've seen at sanctioned bench rest shoots.

 

[Gappmast]

Try a Benchmark 2 grove they shoot great

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

Try a Benchmark 2 grove they shoot great

Do they offer "rimfire barrels"?

A couple of the "top notch" rimfire barrels are those put out by Lilja and Lothar
Walther. Lothar Walther offers a .22 rimfire barrel with a 1:16.4 twist. Can't quite figger what the purpose in that involves?

 

[jbell]

Do they offer "rimfire barrels"?

A couple of the "top notch" rimfire barrels are those put out by Lilja and Lothar
Walther. Lothar Walther offers a .22 rimfire barrel with a 1:16.4 twist. Can't quite figger what the purpose in that involves?

Some of the best...

 

[mattt]

groups dont mean anything unless you shoot against another rifle in the same conditions.

 

[mrh1958]

I said "Shooters should be careful about reading too much from a single group."

It's surprising that any serious shooter, especially someone like Lee, who has a number of years of .22LR bench and lot testing experience, would take the opposite position that shooters should be reading a great deal about their rifle and ammo from a single very good group. According to that view, one group proves much about the rifle, ammo, and shooter.

It's a rather myopic point of view. Why? One single group proves nothing by itself. If it did, it would be possible for shooters to evaluate a rifle or ammo by shooting a single group and making firm conclusions based on five shots. Random acts of accuracy occur. The single targets I posted are just that.

This is very true about not letting 1 group make you think that a rifle will produce the kind of accuracy consistently, heres a good example, the two groups in the photo were fired back to back with my factory Tikka T1X, with a 14x scope and Midas + ammo @ 50 yards, will it do this consistently? heck no, I wish, it does do well.

 

[Gappmast]

Do they offer "rimfire barrels"?

A couple of the "top notch" rimfire barrels are those put out by Lilja and Lothar
Walther. Lothar Walther offers a .22 rimfire barrel with a 1:16.4 twist. Can't quite figger what the purpose in that involves?

In my camp Benchmark and Lilja are the best on the market, and they are top notch people to deal with.

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

The whole point may have been lost quite a few posts ago, when the talk about "benchrest shooting" got involved.
My interest, and I'm thinking, many others also, involves affordable rifles using common, and affordable, .22 rimfire ammunition, and to see how well we can make those rifles shoot, within REASONABLE expectations. How it "morphed" away from a rifle, like the CZ bolt action models, Savage Mark II, Ruger 77/22, or any of the other .22 rimfire rifles that are quite a bit above "entry level", always seems to happen.
Comparing these rifles to those built at around $3,000.00 to $4,000.00, per, was not the intention. The group I'd rather cater to involves those who don't want to rely on ONE specific Lot # of Eley Ten-X at $18.00 per 50 rounds. That just doesn't pique my interest.
I'd much rather shoot/test/and experiment with some good .22 rimfire bolt actions, especially when I can buy four or five of the "common guy" rifles and even put decent scopes on 'em. for the same amount of $$$. So, when one of those combinations show that, YES, there are some "one-ragged-hole" groups in that combinations make-up, and with .22 rimfire ammunition the likes of Wolfe Match Target, CCI Standard and Norma TAC-22, I'm elated. Consistency in doing that was brought up by somebody else, and certainly NOT an expectation for those of us who try with what we have. Even, and only when a group size of 0.500 inch shows up on a fairly regular basis. I don't need a trophy, just a few bunnies and squirrels for the skillet and then a day of shooting off my bench out back of my shop for a good excuse to get an anomaly group.
Heck, those most all of those BIG dollar rifles are not "consistently" producing 0.0070 inch groups (KUDOS to the shooter), so those could also be considered an anomaly, right?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

groups dont mean anything unless you shoot against another rifle in the same conditions.

Would be great if some sanctioning body brought back RF group shooting!

Lee

 

[Mark88]

Now that would be a lot of fun if we could shoot groups in rimfire benchrest!!!! I would like that better than shooting target cards.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Now that would be a lot of fun if we could shoot groups in rimfire benchrest!!!! I would like that better than shooting target cards.

I think it would draw a large group of shooters. only problem would be the need to use moving backers.
I thought about using a round backer, that was moved every 1-2 minutes using a simple battery powered motorized system with a timer to move the backer at the set time limit. so you would need to shoot within the time limit for each shot. if the backer doesn't have 5 separate shots you are DQ

Lee