Rifle to pistol build and our gubmint re XP100

[Topstrap]

Mine will be a 15" barrel threaded for a brake, brake should add about another 1 1/2". It will also have a rifle scope sitting on top of it. Hardest part these days is finding a good stock that doesn't bankrupt you. If I do a rear grip I'll just start with a new in the box 700 single shot action with solid bottom using a Jewell trigger and stocks are much easier.

I think to make the 16+ inch rule somethings such as a muzzle brake had to be fastened permanently such as welded on to be considered as adding to the overall length. If it's able to be removed then they view it as you'll be doing that as soon as you are out of their sight. Dumb rules but someone sitting in an office that has no clue dreamed this stuff up.

Topstrap

 

[NorCalMikie]

That's why you go with a 16" barrel from the start. Add on's come later. No worries that way.

 

[Iowa Fox]

I think to make the 16+ inch rule somethings such as a muzzle brake had to be fastened permanently such as welded on to be considered as adding to the overall length. If it's able to be removed then they view it as you'll be doing that as soon as you are out of their sight. Dumb rules but someone sitting in an office that has no clue dreamed this stuff up.

Topstrap

I guess when I was typing that I wasn't thinking about the 16" rule. I had the MOA on the brain and barrel limit for light & hunter class is 15". As long as the action is stamped XP100 on the left side and has no barrel or stock when I fill out the 4473 its an other that was born as a pistol by Remington. GTG for a pistol build. If it would show up with a stock and 16" barrel then its just another Remington rifle that I don't want. It takes a year to put one together so it would be a 2018 build, the hard part to swallow is I'll be 70 years old.

If you use a brake to get to 16" for a rifle they do have to be permanently attached (welded). Or I guess a guy could do a SBR. Don't know what that would be good for?

Ever think about coming to the MOA with a few of the other guys from Rayners?

 

[NorCalMikie]

If you use a "XP 100" action, the barrel can be any length you want. If you build a rifle out of the XP action, I would go at least 16" or longer on the barrel to avoid any questions or strange looks.
Any shorter than 16" and you get into the SBR (short barreled rifle) thing. That's another can of worms that you don't need to deal with.

It takes a year to put one together so it would be a 2018 build, the hard part to swallow is I'll be 70 years old.

So being 70 years old is a bad thing?? That only means you don't move quite as fast as you use to.

 

[Eric Leonard]

I read up a little and see if I am anywhere close,,if you buy a new receiver you can build a rifle or pistol,,if you buy a pistol you can keep it a pistol or make it a rifle,,but once it has been a rifle you cant make it into a pistol ,,,I read that mainly concerning AR lowers but it would seem to apply to bolt receivers also,,

but if you came up with an XP100 in rifle form and switched it back IDK how they would or if they could trace it back and see if it was ever a rifle or not,,but I do see where it could cost you 10 years and 250,000$$ so I am out,

 

[NorCalMikie]

If YOU convert your XP 100 action that is registered to you ( or anybody else) from day one as a pistol, by adding a long barrel and mounting it into a rifle style stock, then decide at a later date to switch it back to a pistol configuration, no one but you will know what it was. All that is known is that the XP 100 was/is a pistol.
If the conversion is done by a FFL holding smith, it's in the books.
All it takes is someone with the know how to swap barrels and you're in business. No paper work involved.

 

[H380]

Read the ATF letter on this page.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

Contenders and Encores are NOT exempt according to the ATF. It all depends on the configuration SHIPPED from the manufacturer. Pistol to rifle = OK. Rifle to pistol = Illegal SBR. If a Dealer puts a pistol barrel on a contender that was shipped as a rifle. He created a SBR and a felony. Even if has never been sold. Legally you need a contender rifle AND pistol receiver. Of course who is going to check. But it is the letter of the law and if a DA wants wants to find anything wrong. Good luck. If you want to know for sure what your receiver really "IS". The ATF says to contact the manufacturer to verify the shipped configuration.

 

[NorCalMikie]

If the barrel is 16" or longer, it is NOT a SBR (short barreled rifle)!! No matter what it appears to be.

 

[TRA]

Read the ATF letter on this page.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

Contenders and Encores are NOT exempt according to the ATF. It all depends on the configuration SHIPPED from the manufacturer. Pistol to rifle = OK. Rifle to pistol = Illegal SBR. If a Dealer puts a pistol barrel on a contender that was shipped as a rifle. He created a SBR and a felony. Even if has never been sold. Legally you need a contender rifle AND pistol receiver. Of course who is going to check. But it is the letter of the law and if a DA wants wants to find anything wrong. Good luck. If you want to know for sure what your receiver really "IS". The ATF says to contact the manufacturer to verify the shipped configuration.

You should really read 2011-4, again and again.

There is also something most fail to grasp and that is, what specifically constitutes a "Pistol", And the same for a "Rifle"

A "Pistol" is a hand fired firearm, which for all practicable purposes has no minimum or maximum dimensions or anything as long as it is fired from your hands.

The "Rifle" has at least 3 requirements, that pertain to this subject.

1. It must have a barrel of at least 16".

2. It must have a minimum length of 26 inches.

3. And this is where it gets sticky. The 3rd requirement is that it must be designed to be fired from the shoulder. See you can have a "Pistol" 4 inches or 4 feet long and it's still a "Pistol". You could have a "Rifle" that is over 26IN with 16" barrel which is still a "Rifle", not a "Pistol" Removing the shoulder stock would make it an NFA item, and would be neither a rifle or a pistol.

Once you put a shoulder stock on a XP, you cannot, "Legally" take it back off. That point does not pertain to the Thompson Centers that are shipped as combination Rifle/Pistol, as stated in 2011-4.

 

[H380]

If the barrel is 16" or longer, it is NOT a SBR (short barreled rifle)!! No matter what it appears to be.

Nope-ish. It has to have an OAL longer than 26" also. So a 16" barrel with a pistol grip on a receiver that was configured as a rifle. It is a SBR. A pistol must be less than 26" OAL and less than 16" barrel.

If the receiver shipped from the factory as a Rifle. It must always be a rifle. Add a barrel less than 16" and you make a SBR. Add a new stock? The total OAL must be at least 26" long. Once a rifle, always a rifle. You can put a 16" barrel and rifle stock on a pistol action. That makes it a rifle now. Take the barrel off and put a 10" barrel back on you just made a SBR.

Again according to the ATF what the status of the action "IS" can only determined by the "Configuration" that the manufacturer shipped it. The only legal configuration change that can be made. Is to go from a pistol to rifle. BUT you can not go back to a pistol without creating a SBR.

If a receiver is sold as a receiver only. It is sold as a firearm. With no configuration. The first build determines what the receiver is. A pistol or rifle.

This is the letter of the law. Again trying to prove who switched what when is crazy. But possing an unregistered SBR is a felony.

 

[dellet]

I boughty the book "fifty shades of grey" because I thought it was about this exact subject.

There is the how the law was written, how the law is enforced and more confusingly, how ATF interprets the law based on the most recent letter of opinion written.

The best info, is the Supreme court ruling and ATF letters posted earlier for Thompson center. Basically saying that what matters is the "original configuration". This was a ruling, not an opinion.

Where people get tripped up is when they buy all the parts and assemble them the first time, they have become the "manufacturer" and have made either a rifle, or a pistol and you can not change it back in forth without sorting through all the definitions with measuring tape and law book in hand. In most basic terms it's best to think of it as once a pistol/rifle, always a pistol/rifle.

This is where buying Thompson center pistol at a gun show can get interesting without running the numbers to see how it was originally configured. You buy it as a pistol, a Game Warden runs the numbers and it comes back as a rifle, you gots some splainin to do.

The absolutely terrifying part of the courts ruling, and ATF's position, is what they call "Constructive intent", which basically says if you have all the parts laying around to build an NFA item, it's assumed that you will be.

"However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13."

This can be as simple as having an un-mounted XP100 action with a barrel less than 16" and an extra Model 7 rifle stock in the same room. If an issue comes up, you are depending on someone else to "interpret your intent"

All that said, I currently have a Model 7 pistol under construction, using a virgin action. I have kept the original box and receipt for my records. Stored right next to a couple of Model 7 rifle stocks.

My only worry in buying a used XP100 action might be that at sometime, someplace, it had been documented in rifle form. My experiences in court have always been the guy with the most money, or letters of the alphabet behind his agency win. I doubt that worry would keep me awake at night.

Build and enjoy it.

 

[H380]

You should really read 2011-4, again and again.

There is also something most fail to grasp and that is, what specifically constitutes a "Pistol", And the same for a "Rifle"

A "Pistol" is a hand fired firearm, which for all practicable purposes has no minimum or maximum dimensions or anything as long as it is fired from your hands.

The "Rifle" has at least 3 requirements, that pertain to this subject.

1. It must have a barrel of at least 16".

2. It must have a minimum length of 26 inches.

3. And this is where it gets sticky. The 3rd requirement is that it must be designed to be fired from the shoulder. See you can have a "Pistol" 4 inches or 4 feet long and it's still a "Pistol". You could have a "Rifle" that is over 26IN with 16" barrel which is still a "Rifle", not a "Pistol" Removing the shoulder stock would make it an NFA item, and would be neither a rifle or a pistol.

Once you put a shoulder stock on a XP, you cannot, "Legally" take it back off. That point does not pertain to the Thompson Centers that are shipped as combination Rifle/Pistol, as stated in 2011-4.

Look at the Letter in the link.
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239
Taking ANY "Firearm" in the configuration of a rifle. Then making it less than 26" OAL and/or less than a 16" barrel. Is making a SBR.

Re read that page I linked. The ATF letter pertains directly to the contender and encore situation. What TC says you can do. Does not jive with what the ATF says you can do.

The receiver that can legally be a rifle and pistol does not exist. Again 16" and 26" OAL is the line not to be crossed.

Once a firearm is in a rifle configuration. It can not go back to sub 16" barrel of sub 26" OAL period. Unless you get the papers.

 

[TRA]

Taking ANY "Firearm" in the configuration of a rifle. Then making it less than 26" OAL and/or less than a 16" barrel. Is making a SBR.

But it is not a SBR if the shoulder stock is swapped for a pistol stock. It's in a grey area that it becomes neither a rifle or pistol. It becomes an illegal gun as it, 1. cannot be a rifle without a shoulder stock, so calling it a SBR is not how the law reads.

The ATF is no different than any other government organization that deals with laws. Ask ten different ones the same question and you will get ten different answers. What is Written as law in the statutes is the last word. Believing those letters are your guarantee of immunity might just backfire. The laws as written are easy enough to understand. When some agent starts adlibbing and writing what "He" thinks the law says, is a good time to read the law and have a qualified lawyer confirm it for you.

A short barreled rifle still must have a shoulder stock. A SBR cannot be a pistol, and a rifle can not become a pistol. You could be over the 16" and 26" limits and still be in violation of the law.

 

[TRA]

This is part of the ruling that allows a Thompson Center "Pistol" with a "Carbine Kit" to be configured as a pistol and or a rifle and vice versa.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or reassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

 

[H380]

This is part of the ruling that allows a Thompson Center "Pistol" with a "Carbine Kit" to be configured as a pistol and or a rifle and vice versa.

Read that ATF letter again.
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239
The ATF letter states if it left TC as a rifle it must stay a rifle. If you put on a barrel less than 16" and/or make the OAL less than 26". You make a SBR. If you create a rifle configuration on a pistol frame (Legal) and then go back to a pistol configuration. You make a SBR. Period. The end.

TC says something else from their lawsuit. It does not matter what TC says. The ATF is the one that will arrest you. That ATF letter is the rule. Not TC's opinion. Do you think TC will defend you in court? Just write a letter to the ATF and request clarification. Specifically ask about TC position vs. the ATF position. Post the reply here. Once a rifle always a rifle is the answer.

That said. I have a contender pistol frame with a bunch of rifle and pistol barrels. I did swap between them all the time. I did find a 2nd frame that stays rifle only. Who will check? No one has been prosecuted so far. With my luck I will be the test case. The proper way is to have 2 frames.

 

[H380]

But it is not a SBR if the shoulder stock is swapped for a pistol stock. It's in a grey area that it becomes neither a rifle or pistol. It becomes an illegal gun as it, 1. cannot be a rifle without a shoulder stock, so calling it a SBR is not how the law reads.

The ATF is no different than any other government organization that deals with laws. Ask ten different ones the same question and you will get ten different answers. What is Written as law in the statutes is the last word. Believing those letters are your guarantee of immunity might just backfire. The laws as written are easy enough to understand. When some agent starts adlibbing and writing what "He" thinks the law says, is a good time to read the law and have a qualified lawyer confirm it for you.

A short barreled rifle still must have a shoulder stock. A SBR cannot be a pistol, and a rifle can not become a pistol. You could be over the 16" and 26" limits and still be in violation of the law.

The "what is a pistol" argument only applies when a bare frame is first assembled as a pistol. If the frame is configured as a rifle (no matter when that happens) it can never be a pistol. It can only be a rifle or a SBR.

Ok. I have a contender rifle with a 16" barrel and buttstock. I then take off the buttstock and put on a pistol grip. I made a SBR because the OAL is less than 26". I put ANY barrel shorter than 16" I create a SBR no matter what the stock is. Once it is in a rifle configuration you can not go back to a pistol without creating a SBR. Easy and simple.

Ok. Same 16" barreled rifle. I replace the buttstock with a folding buttstock. I made a SBR because OAL is less than 26". It is measured from the folded position. I can pin the folding stock open permanently. That will be legal. Or I can permanently attach something to the muzzle or add a longer barrel to the rifle. So that when the stock is closed the rifle measures over 26".

If a smith takes a xp100 action that is in a rifle configuration. Then makes the gun less than 26" and/or makes the barrel less than 16". He makes a SBR. Period.

 

[TRA]

I think you are confusing Supreme Court rulings with some nonsense from Thompson Center.

Read this real slow,
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA. To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded. Date approved: July 25, 2011 Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director

Then read the 4 pages that go with it from the ATF,

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Then read this whole thread, it may help your confusion as I have repeatedly stated once a rifle always a rifle. There is no pistol workaround when altering a rifle. Even if you applied for and received a SBR provision, the rifle would still be illegal. IE......there is no "SBR/Pistol" authorization.

A SBR is a specific firearm and is legal with the proper authorization. A rifle without a butt stock, no matter how long it is, is totally a no-no and plain and simply.. illegal. There is no workaround for such a firearm, no matter who is calling it a SBR, as a SBR is still a rifle, albeit a restricted one.

 

[H380]

I think you are confusing Supreme Court rulings with some nonsense from Thompson Center.

Read this real slow,
Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA. To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded. Date approved: July 25, 2011 Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director

Then read the 4 pages that go with it from the ATF,

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Then read this whole thread, it may help your confusion as I have repeatedly stated once a rifle always a rifle. There is no pistol workaround when altering a rifle. Even if you applied for and received a SBR provision, the rifle would still be illegal. IE......there is no "SBR/Pistol" authorization.

A SBR is a specific firearm and is legal with the proper authorization. A rifle without a butt stock, no matter how long it is, is totally a no-no and plain and simply.. illegal. There is no workaround for such a firearm, no matter who is calling it a SBR, as a SBR is still a rifle, albeit a restricted one.

Ok. Now you are on about what is and is not a registrable SBR. I should have left out SBRs. SBRs do not apply to this thread.

Also according to the ATF. TCs guns are not in a special class. The rules are universal. It it applies to a bolt action, it applies to an AR, it applies to a contender frame. TC claims they are special. ATF says no.

The original question was about going back and forth between a RIFLE and a PISTOL on the same receiver.

We can agree if the manufacturer says it is a pistol. You may make it into a rifle. BUT you can never go back to a pistol.

We can agree if the manufacturer says it is a rifle. Or is has been converted or originally assembled bare "firearm" receiver as a rifle. You can NOT make it into a pistol.

We can agree if the manufacturer sells the receiver as a bare "firearm" AND the FFL dealer list the receiver as a firearm. The receiver becomes whatever the first configuration is built. Pistol or rifle.

Agree with that?

All of this is the Fed stuff. Add in the state laws it may be different.

 

[TRA]

Ok. Now you are on about what is and is not a registrable SBR. I should have left out SBRs. SBRs do not apply to this thread.

Also according to the ATF. TCs guns are not in a special class. The rules are universal. It it applies to a bolt action, it applies to an AR, it applies to a contender frame. TC claims they are special. ATF says no.

The original question was about going back and forth between a RIFLE and a PISTOL on the same receiver.

We can agree if the manufacturer says it is a pistol. You may make it into a rifle. BUT you can never go back to a pistol.

We can agree if the manufacturer says it is a rifle. Or is has been converted or originally assembled bare "firearm" receiver as a rifle. You can NOT make it into a pistol.

We can agree if the manufacturer sells the receiver as a bare "firearm" AND the FFL dealer list the receiver as a firearm. The receiver becomes whatever the first configuration is built. Pistol or rifle.

Agree with that?

All of this is the Fed stuff. Add in the state laws it may be different.

That's what I've been saying all along. I agree with everything, except the letter written in 2003, and the ruling made in 2011 with regards to thompson contradict each other. Both signed by the same person. My position is that while I totally agree with you, the letters and court rulings don't seem to be on the same page.

I don't advocate anyone do something foolish, but what is written, directly from the ATF site clouds the issue. That's my only point I tried to make here.

All of these grey area guns have a real possibility of creating a bad situation for those left with them after the owner passes away.

 

[H380]

Yes. I agree.

As far as the TC stuff. The ATF ruling is what should be followed not TCs court ruling. The ATF enforces the law. But it is your choice. No one has been charged to date.

The ATF does not agree with the court ruling and has issued the guidance in spite of the TC court ruling. It has not been in court again. Someone will need to sue the ATF on this exact point to reverse the ATF ruling. Or the ATF needs to charge someone for a barrel swap. That is why a belt a suspenders guy should have 2 TC frames. Until the ATF changes their ruling.