Rifle or Ammo MOST Important?

[Phil3]

Just wondering... I see lots of info on load development, all in an effort to develop a load that works well for a specific rifle. I would think that most people firing a tactical style rifle would be pleased with a 1/2 MOA group, or even a 3/8" group. But, I also see rifles guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA, or even 3/8 MOA. Most state that is done with premium match ammo. Obviously, "premium match ammo" is not ammo tuned for the rifle. It is just off the shelf premium ammo.

Leaves me wondering if rifle quality is more a key to accuracy than ammo. Or vice versa? I wonder how much more accuracy can be squeezed out of a rifle with handloaded ammo that already shoots 3/8 MOA ammo with off-the-shelf match ammo.

I am just asking a question and not staking out a position.

Phil

 

[Bill Norris]

Just wondering... I see lots of info on load development, all in an effort to develop a load that works well for a specific rifle. I would think that most people firing a tactical style rifle would be pleased with a 1/2 MOA group, or even a 3/8" group. But, I also see rifles guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA, or even 3/8 MOA. Most state that is done with premium match ammo. Obviously, "premium match ammo" is not ammo tuned for the rifle. It is just off the shelf premium ammo.

Leaves me wondering if rifle quality is more a key to accuracy than ammo. Or vice versa? I wonder how much more accuracy can be squeezed out of a rifle with handloaded ammo that already shoots 3/8 MOA ammo with off-the-shelf match ammo.

I am just asking a question and not staking out a position.

Phil

NORMALLY, handloads will perform better in a given rifle than off the shelf ammo whatever the group size may be.

However, 3/8" groups are pretty good especially for off the shelf rifles. The question is how consistent will it perform ? One wallet group don't mean it will do it next time out.

 

[Clancy]

A lot of people that offer an accuracy guarantee have built their Reamer around a factory load. For someone like me who believes seating depth is more critical than charge, it’s not hard to believe they’d offer that.

I’d rather shoot custom guns than have reloads though. I build a gun to fit myself and then tailor a load to it.

If there were some imaginary law that said I had to choose, I’d choose a custom rifle.

 

[Bill Norris]

Example of what I'm referring to in above post.

Friend of mine came over the other day and was shooting some factory ammo in his 6.5 C M. Shot a real tight 5 shot group @ 100 yds. A few days ago he came back with same rifle and same ammo. Could not get it under @ 3/4 MOA at all. He was bragging about how good his rifle was shooting with factory ammo the first time but the second time he was upset and wanting an explanation of why his rifle was not shooting.

 

[6BRA]

40%rifle,40% reloading skills, 20% shooter...imo

 

[ebb]

YES

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Weakest link? If we're talking factory ammo in a decent custom rifle, the ammo is virtually always the weak link. Factory rifle and ammo, all bets are off. No way to know the quality nor the tune of either or the combination. I would never offer a 3/8-1/2in accuracy guarantee on factory ammo because that is exactly, guaranteeing someone else's product...and tune. That same guarantee with tailored handloads..yes. I'd expect that or better. In a target rifle...way better.

 

[Bill Norris]

Weakest link? If we're talking factory ammo in a decent custom rifle, the ammo is virtually always the weak link. Factory rifle and ammo, all bets are off. No way to know the quality nor the tune of either or the combination. I would never offer a 3/8-1/2in accuracy guarantee on factory ammo because that is exactly, guaranteeing someone else's product...and tune. That same guarantee with tailored handloads..yes. I'd expect that or better. In a target rifle...way better.

It's a hard job to convince people that don't know the cold hard facts.

 

[jepp2]

Leaves me wondering if rifle quality is more a key to accuracy than ammo.

The rifle can limit the potential accuracy. I see the best answer as being something outside of the actual question the way you have asked it.

 

[biggun2869]

Convince the OP that he is good to go with factory ammo. He will learn on his own

 

[Ccrider]

You never know how goods the ammo or rifle is if the shooter does not have the physical ability to shoot .0s to .1s at 100 with the setup.

After that, the setup has to be a solid platform. After that, a good rifle with decent, ie. consistent ammo, should shoot less than 1 moa.

With the right ammo, it should shoot .5 moa or better——Depending on the amount of customization, much better.

You can take a custom rifle capable of shooting 0s and .1s, feed it bad ammo and blame your 1+ moa groups on a problem with the rifle all day long.

You can take a junk rifle (mechanically unsound- bad chamber, bad barrel, ignition off, etc.), feed it the best hand loaded ammo, and it ain’t gone shoot small groups.

 

[Bill Norris]

You never know how goods the ammo or rifle is if the shooter does not have the physical ability to shoot .0s to .1s at 100 with the setup.

After that, the setup has to be a solid platform. After that, a good rifle with decent, ie. consistent ammo, should shoot less than 1 moa.

With the right ammo, it should shoot .5 moa or better——Depending on the amount of customization, much better.

You can take a custom rifle capable of shooting 0s and .1s, feed it bad ammo and blame your 1+ moa groups on a problem with the rifle all day long.

You can take a junk rifle (mechanically unsound- bad chamber, bad barrel, ignition off, etc.), feed it the best hand loaded ammo, and it ain’t gone shoot small groups.

And not to make this about tuners but under these circumstances the tuner will not do it's job.

 

[DocBII]

Good day,

It's a system. While in one system, one part may responsible for most of the results, in another system another part can be responsible. What matters are YOUR results with your system.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[ebb]

OMG Bill now he's going to call you "skippy" also!!!! I think he has trouble with his memory,.He got all over me about trashing tuners and completely forgot we had talked twice about chambering a barrel in 30 major and installing a tuner on my ugly gun.

 

[Bill Norris]

OMG Bill now he's going to call you "skippy" also!!!! I think he has trouble with his memory,.He got all over me about trashing tuners and completely forgot we had talked twice about chambering a barrel in 30 major and installing a tuner on my ugly gun.

LOL.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

OMG Bill now he's going to call you "skippy" also!!!! I think he has trouble with his memory,.He got all over me about trashing tuners and completely forgot we had talked twice about chambering a barrel in 30 major and installing a tuner on my ugly gun.

I don't know who you are by your screen name or who you're addressing for sure but I'm happy to discuss any issues you have. Unfortunately, I can't say for sure without a name but no one has contacted me with any problems in a long, long while so if we've discussed any troubles, it'd be hard for me to say but I'm always happy to help whenever I can. Phone is the best way to get me.

 

[Leo Smith]

Just wondering... I see lots of info on load development, all in an effort to develop a load that works well for a specific rifle. I would think that most people firing a tactical style rifle would be pleased with a 1/2 MOA group, or even a 3/8" group. But, I also see rifles guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA, or even 3/8 MOA. Most state that is done with premium match ammo. Obviously, "premium match ammo" is not ammo tuned for the rifle. It is just off the shelf premium ammo.

Leaves me wondering if rifle quality is more a key to accuracy than ammo. Or vice versa? I wonder how much more accuracy can be squeezed out of a rifle with handloaded ammo that already shoots 3/8 MOA ammo with off-the-shelf match ammo.

I am just asking a question and not staking out a position.

Phil

Shooter

 

[Phil3]

Example of what I'm referring to in above post.

Friend of mine came over the other day and was shooting some factory ammo in his 6.5 C M. Shot a real tight 5 shot group @ 100 yds. A few days ago he came back with same rifle and same ammo. Could not get it under @ 3/4 MOA at all. He was bragging about how good his rifle was shooting with factory ammo the first time but the second time he was upset and wanting an explanation of why his rifle was not shooting.

I am the OP. Thanks for your response as it calls into question a couple of other things. One, what is the process for determining if a rifle meets a 1/2 or 3/8 MOA guarantee? First group? As many groups as it takes until one meets the guarantee? I don't know.

Secondly, some guarantees of group size mention a 3 shot group. Not five. Certainly a lower bar to clear.

I have had variations day to day as your friend did. I am not sure why this has happened to me or your friend, but I would surely like to know.

Thanks. Phil

 

[Phil3]

I am the OP. I fully understand the importance of the shooter, but please assume the shooter can extract accuracy beyond what the rifle and/or ammunition can deliver.

I would like to understand if there is any reliable way to understand what is the weak link in the rifle/ammo/shooter combination. A known excellent shooter (BR) can show me what my rifle is capable of. I have done that, and he did no better than I, when we shot back to back taking turns with the rifle. So is the rifle or the ammo holding back more accuracy. How do you find out?

 

[Bill Norris]

If a true B R shooter tried then something is amiss with rifle or load no doubt.