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Rifle canted/scope plumb questions

cj8vet

question
--my competition is prone, 500yds,700yds 1000yds(NALRSA)-rifle set up-level on scope rail, level on top of turret. Bubble level ring on scope. so all plumb and square, Swivel bipod with lock lever.
At matches I often feel like I am fighting the rifle to find level and feel good in my shoulder pocket.

Article on David Tubb's site re: his bubble level says--

"... Once set to your desired positioning, you can then rotate the scope to your natural point of aim and include any reasonable amount of cant to your rifle and yet maintain the levelness of the scope since you now have a control (the level)."

I am wondering about this set up--scope bubble and reticle plumb/square--get in position --loose rings-have buddy adjust scope to plumb with a distant vertical line, proper eye relief and tighten.

I am just wondering about -slightly canted rifle with plumb reticle- and bullet tracking thru range changes?

comments please.
Thanks
Mark
cj8vet
 
It doesn't matter if the rifle is canted or not as long as the scope is level. When you make sight adjustments you want the POI to move either verticaly or horrozontally. Not right and down to 4 o'clock or up and left to 10 o'clock which would happen if the scope is canted. It's best to have both the rifle and scope level.
 
jr600yd said:
It doesn't matter if the rifle is canted or not as long as the scope is level. When you make sight adjustments you want the POI to move either verticaly or horrozontally. Not right and down to 4 o'clock or up and left to 10 o'clock which would happen if the scope is canted. It's best to have both the rifle and scope level.
Click to expand...

I would say this is true unless you have a rail that is angled (20 moa).
 
Hydenseek said:
I would say this is true unless you have a rail that is angled (20 moa).
Click to expand...
What effect does a 20 moa rail have? Curious. Most people that shoot 1000 or further use a 20 moa rail. I have used the Wheeler professional level kit to level my scopes and put a bubble level on my scope. Still looks canted. Put it to where it looks good and feels good at 100 and use the plumb bob to level the scope now.
 
I am sure there are more knowledgeable folks than I on this site that could explain it better.

I've set my scope for silhouette (no level when shooting) by using a plumb bob like Lone Hunter said. I keep the scope just loose enough in the rings to rotate it until the vertical cross hair lines up with the plumb bob. This way, the scope is level to the vertical and the rifle is my natural hold. I check several times as I tighten the rings.

Vertical tracking has been right out to 550 yards.
 
cj8vet said:
question
--my competition is prone, 500yds,700yds 1000yds(NALRSA)-rifle set up-level on scope rail, level on top of turret. Bubble level ring on scope. so all plumb and square, Swivel bipod with lock lever.
At matches I often feel like I am fighting the rifle to find level and feel good in my shoulder pocket.

Article on David Tubb's site re: his bubble level says--

"... Once set to your desired positioning, you can then rotate the scope to your natural point of aim and include any reasonable amount of cant to your rifle and yet maintain the levelness of the scope since you now have a control (the level)."

I am wondering about this set up--scope bubble and reticle plumb/square--get in position --loose rings-have buddy adjust scope to plumb with a distant vertical line, proper eye relief and tighten.

I am just wondering about -slightly canted rifle with plumb reticle- and bullet tracking thru range changes?

comments please.
Thanks
Mark
cj8vet
Click to expand...
This is something that does not work for most of us. This is what I call "fudging" and it can work but it requires extensive experience in "fudging", wha!:cool:! The way you hold your rifle and then adjusting a scope to it should only happen as a part of the amount of practice time you put into it. Start at square and plumb and trust that! Until you have enough experience to make a change against the trust don't change that. When you put enough time into the test, change and retest! Your tests and changes will be in accordance to the time and practice you put into it. What works for Tubb may not work for you. I hope that all of your practice and tests will include wind flags, notes of wind conditions, temps, and notes on how your load performed in such before you make any changes. My 2 centavos!!
 
You can mount the scope anywhere around the axis of the bore. As long as the vertical is aligned with the bore axis. Now if the scope is level and the bore is, say an inch off center, but level, you got problems. Take a "V" center from a combination square and align the scope "vertical" to it and you are good to go. The problem with leveling everything, or squaring everything, is that the scope usually is not centered with the bore. Pic rails can be all over the place. The bullet flight is not dependant on the orientation of the action.

We usually assume everything is perfect as long as it's all level, the real issue is that the bore and the scope are aligned when the scope is held level.
 
I think the scope should be aligned to the center of the bore. EXD Engineering makes a tool that should get it close and it's available through Brownells. It would be best not to trust the scope caps and align the reticle vertical with a true vertical line like a weighted string (a plumb bob) at several yards away.
Adj.jpg
EXD Engineering.jpg
 
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I use my iphone’s bubble level app with great results.
First level your rifle, second level your half rings and finally your scope.
 
Lone Hunter said:
What effect does a 20 moa rail have? Curious. Most people that shoot 1000 or further use a 20 moa rail. I have used the Wheeler professional level kit to level my scopes and put a bubble level on my scope. Still looks canted. Put it to where it looks good and feels good at 100 and use the plumb bob to level the scope now.
Click to expand...
I level mine with a plumb bob as described above but i would say a rail w angle in it can exaggerate the effects of having your rifle canted.
Instead of two parralel lines you would be forming a “v” at some point.
 
I recently bought an electronic level. Haven't used it on scopes yet. It should be a lot more accurate than using a simple bubble level. This one is about 2" on a side and is magnetic with a V groove in each side to stick on something round like a barrel.
level.jpg
 
Question ?? If your using the scopes cap (elevation adjustment) What is to say that, that cap is level. ??

Best system I've found is to get the stock/action level, on the bench. Then set up a string plum-bob, 50 yards out and rotate the scope until the vertical cross hair is parallel to the plum-bob string.
Quick and simple.
 
hogpatrol said:
What Gary and Matt said ^^. I use a weedwhacker string plumb bob at 100 yards with action out of the stock in a fixture leveled with a precision digital level. I Level the barreled action, line up reticle vertical with the plumb line, tighten ring screws and then using an adjustable scope level (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004SREPRU/?tag=accuratescom-20), set the bubble.
Click to expand...
that sounds good Hog. Where do you level off the action. Off the scope rail? I have done that and have also stuck a piece of precision ground stock in the action resting on the rails , clamped it in there and used that. I get anal about this and overcomplicate it in my mind for sure so i try to keep it simple. i dont see a way to actually align center of bore to vertical recticle. the outside of barrel should be in close alignment to the action but the bore isnt aligned to outside of barrel. the center of scope rail isnt necessarily aligned to c of action or barrel. ect ect on and on i go -- tell me to just knock it off:confused:. NF says the flat bottom of turret is aligned with cross hairs so sometimes i just stick a gauge pin between there and scope rail.
 
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I have to add my comments. I have a reasonable cant. I want a better solution.

Devious Nevius has his barreled actions set in the stocks at the angle of his cant to achieve the vertical position of the scope/sight position.

Al Warner has made angled sight bases to compensate for the cant.

Thoughts for consideration.

MarkTrew
 
MarkTrew said:
I have to add my comments. I have a reasonable cant. I want a better solution.
..snip..
Al Warner has made angled sight bases to compensate for the cant.
Click to expand...

Hi Mark, I assume you are looking for a solution for iron sights.

With a ladder adjustable front sight with a bubble, which is very common nowadays and I am 99% sure that you use one, you can deliberately mount the front sight "crooked", so that it is level when you are holding the rifle in a comfortable canted position. The rearsight can be left in its standard mounting position (perpendicular to the action's axes), i.e. it will be crooked with respect to the front sight.

As you shoot the various distances from 300y to 1000y, if you make the vast majority of the adjustments with your front sight (i.e. your rearsight elevation adjustment remains within a 5MOA range), you will effectively "get away with" almost all of the problems ordinarily associated with crooked or canted sights.

(It might take some time to work through and understand why this is so)
 
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