RETRO POWDER ( NOT For SALE )

[SEGARE]

Just like the spelling police people are worried about what forum, this does have to do with reloading as it is powder it is just not for sale

This was originally posted in the Classifieds.

 

[Old Navy]

No, Lot #2 is as per today's version. The original surplus powder came from a huge consignment of .303 Mk7z British ammo that Winchester loaded for a government contract to supply Britain through the Lend-Lease arrangements. The powder came from the large Winchester-Western plant in St. Marks Florida that is still there today having passed through Olin Corporation ownership and is now owned by General Dynamics.

This was late WW2, and the war ended before the ammunition was shipped, so the order was cancelled and stayed in the US. It was eventually demilled and Bruce Hodgdon bought the powder and put it onto the market. There was enough to meet demand for many years and it built up a following. Hodgdon originally sold it as 'Ball Powder' something or other, but Olin which had trademarked the name 'ball powder' formally objected, so Hodgdon renamed it BL-C an abbreviation of Ball Lot C.

When the surplus supply ran out, Hodgdon went to Olin and asked if they could make more of it. The answer was 'yes' and 'no' in that they wouldn't supply a clone, but there was a very similar grade being developed for the newly adopted 7.62mm NATO M180 ball cartridge, WC something or other. The flash suppressant was removed from this product and supplied to Hodgdon who named it BL-C(2), ie Ball Lot C 2nd version to differentiate it from the original, and it has been in production ever since. IIRC, it was the first newly manufactured powder that the Hodgdon Powder Co. commissioned and marketed.

I remember reading a similar story how Hodgdon got started but it was 4895 as well as others I am sure. My neighbor that got me started in reloading had like a 25 lb. paper barrel of some surplus powder. He was a big magnum shooter. Maybe 4831. I bought some re-bagged 4895 back in the day. I started at the lowest charge in my Speer manual. Locked the gun up so tight I thought I lost it. It was hotter than a two pecker billy goat. I took it over to my neighbor to compare with some DuPont 4895. Mine was lighter and smelled different. First powder I ever dumped.

 

[Laurie]

I bought some re-bagged 4895 back in the day. I started at the lowest charge in my Speer manual. Locked the gun up so tight I thought I lost it. It was hotter than a two pecker billy goat.

Yes, the original surplus grades were all bulk powders made by Dupont for government arsenal orders. Each production lot was different and burn rates could vary considerably. (The arsenals tested the powders and redid load development for whatever cartridges for each and every new lot that arrived.) I read somewhere that surplus 4895 could be as fast burning as regular IMR-3031, or even faster on occasions, through to quite slow burning depending on the production lot. People had to redo their loads on buying a new sack, although IIRC Hodgdon gave general advice on the properties by lot number.

Surplus 4831, one of Bruce Hodgdon's staples for many, many years was regular wartime manufactured IMR-4831 developed not as a magnum rifle cartridge but for 20mm cannon shells. By the time Hodgdon sold the last surplus supplies of the grade off it was now so old its burning had become slower over time. As customers liked the powder just as it was, when Hodgdon Powder contracted the manufacture of fresh supplies out to ICI Nobel in Scotland, it asked for the newly made product to retain this slower burn rate. That's how the difference arose between maximum loads and performance for the IMR and Hodgdon versions of the 4831s.

 

[CJ6]

A nice bit of history there Laurie on your posts.

 

[The German]

Considering inflation, a $1.25 in 1936 would be around $26 today - not THAT much of a difference to what you pay for a pound of powder today...
Edit: ... if you can find it...

 

[Adam in WI]

Surplus 4831, one of Bruce Hodgdon's staples for many, many years was regular wartime manufactured IMR-4831 developed not as a magnum rifle cartridge but for 20mm cannon shells. By the time Hodgdon sold the last surplus supplies of the grade off it was now so old its burning had become slower over time. As customers liked the powder just as it was, when Hodgdon Powder contracted the manufacture of fresh supplies out to ICI Nobel in Scotland, it asked for the newly made product to retain this slower burn rate. That's how the difference arose between maximum loads and performance for the IMR and Hodgdon versions of the 4831s.

Man, I really enjoy your posts...

 

[D Coots]

A few of mine.
View attachment 1328643

View attachment 1328644

Hey Butch....you're a hoarder....

Later
Dave

 

[Old Navy]

Yes, the original surplus grades were all bulk powders made by Dupont for government arsenal orders. Each production lot was different and burn rates could vary considerably. (The arsenals tested the powders and redid load development for whatever cartridges for each and every new lot that arrived.) I read somewhere that surplus 4895 could be as fast burning as regular IMR-3031, or even faster on occasions, through to quite slow burning depending on the production lot. People had to redo their loads on buying a new sack, although IIRC Hodgdon gave general advice on the properties by lot number.

Surplus 4831, one of Bruce Hodgdon's staples for many, many years was regular wartime manufactured IMR-4831 developed not as a magnum rifle cartridge but for 20mm cannon shells. By the time Hodgdon sold the last surplus supplies of the grade off it was now so old its burning had become slower over time. As customers liked the powder just as it was, when Hodgdon Powder contracted the manufacture of fresh supplies out to ICI Nobel in Scotland, it asked for the newly made product to retain this slower burn rate. That's how the difference arose between maximum loads and performance for the IMR and Hodgdon versions of the 4831s.

Tell us about the IMI 4831 the Israelis sold us in two pound bottles. I can't remember the details but remember the price was good.

 

[ttedb3]

Cool stuff, thanks for posting.

 

[Laurie]

Tell us about the IMI 4831 the Israelis sold us in two pound bottles. I can't remember the details but remember the price was good.

That might have been the original Accurate-Arms XMR-3100. Accurate Arms, like Hodgdon, started out as a company that sought out surplus military powders, only in its case around the world. It'd also try to find manufacturers with spare capacity who'd agree to supply spot lots on the margins for low prices. AAC used an Israeli producer for many of its powders back in the 1970s, maybe 80s, then that source dried up and it switched most things to the Czech Explosia company (still around in Europe as Lovex powders and the US as Shooters World).

The original 3100 was tested by Bob Hagel and others and written up in Handloader magazine. Although not IMR-4831, it was so close that no loads data was provided, just an instruction to use IMR's. Handloader did a side by side test in a couple of cartridges, probably 243 Win and 30-06, with all other components and charge weights the same for both grades. The results supported the claim as you could hardly separate the pair in MVs, ES, and group sizes. There were no lot numbers on the cans because the entire (large) supply that AAC bought was from a single production run. When it ran out, the Czech powder replaced it and was nothing like 4831, bulkier and slower burning. (That still applies today - Lovex S071 - which you don't get in the US as SW doesn't import it - is nothing like either 4831 and struggles to produce their performance in cartridges like 30-06.)

This same Israeli company made the original Accurate-2520 ball powder that for a couple of years was the darling of serious 308 Win handloaders for the M1A / M14 in Service Rifle with 168s. Cheap too compared to 4064 and 4895, its main competitors. Then the original Israeli supply closed and Accurate couldn't get any more. It continued to sell '2520' without telling anybody it wasn't the same powder, and the replacement wasn't as good as the original in these rifles and loads. That's Czech Lovex D073.6, or in the US Shooters World 'Match Rifle' and still around today and well regarded by many on this forum. Back then, SR Competitors who'd stocked up with 8lb cans of this bargain priced wonder-powder weren't so pleased when their M1As went off-tune after they started using their new powder lots.

 

[NBPRP]

Talk about ball powder with the flash suppressant being removed. Well I can tell you I had a rather exciting experience in both early cool spring conditions and also DRY conditions shooting that powder.

Had come across some poundage of bulk powder and remember some reference to it being from Israel but it was rather inexpensive so I purchased a quantity of it.

So here is were the story gets interesting. One of the first spring matches in Wisconsin was usually at Eau Claire and it would not be uncommon to have to clear snow off the firing berm of the high numbered targets especially if there were a lot of shooter registered, I ended up shooting on the high end with snow in front of me on the ground. The person did not do a bang up job of shoveling so at the 300 yd. rapid stage my barrel was barely an inch above the snow. After the first string my spotter said to me " ahh.. say do you know each time you fire it looks like a basketball sized flame at the front of your barrel and about the same color". Of course I said "No" and later when we checked there was a nicely formed and melted depression and trough in the snow in front of my firing point. At least the next shooter had a clear shot at the target.

About a month or so later there was a match at Lodi and there were a lot of shooters registered so naturally most if not all the targets were used and wouldn't you know it I am on the high end again. Since the high end targets didn't get used much the firing point didn't get as much attention as the other targets. Hence the grass, leaves and spring debris was left unchecked especially in front OF MY FIRING POINT.

At the 600 yd. stage, as luck would have it, the wind was blowing from my right to left and after a couple of rounds down range the aroma of smoldering leaves/grass was noticed by the shooters to my left. Remembering my previous years experience of using red pepper flakes as a filler for 200 yd. slow fire stage I figured on a response for any shooters that voiced a concern. Since Earl Liebertrau was a few firing points away and it was his 'Home Range' at the end of the stage I simply stood up and said "Earl what kind of cheap rifle powder did you sell me?.

All eyes were on him and of course Earl looked dumb founded and taken by surprised, stammered to say anything. This gave other shooters a chance to shake their heads and basically chide him. Later, sitting around the camp fire and sharing a beer I fessed up to the misinformation and we all got a chuckle out of it including Earl.