I am not a huge fan of the 7mm Remington. To me the recoil is very sharp compared to that of a 338. The older I get the more I appreciate the "push" of the heavy bullets, and i am only 40. The difference between my 300 pushing 200g and my 358 pushing 250g is like night and day, the only reason I keep the 300 is for a loaner rifle. I am not a long range hunter, I have yet to shoot a deer up here over 50 yards, but have taken some longish pokes in Texas, so I tend to go big and fat on bullets, we also have some pretty nasty critters up here. 338 is supposed to be excellent for long range hunting, from what I have read mind you. Don't be turned off because of the diameter of the bullet, you might find the felt recoil is more manageable then that of the 7mm. I heard it here some where, "over kill is under rated". Good luck, good hunting, and good times.
Remove the belt?
- Thread starter JohnMill
- Start date
JohnMill
Gold $$ Contributor
JRS
Great. I like it. I first bumped the shoulder after talking to Lynn(wood) Harrell about his PPC dies. So it was like neck size with a button, shoulder bump, body "bump". He then made the rings for the bottom of the dies so you could size the body down .002". Or one. So we had 1thou clearance all the way around a turned neck, a shoulder 1 thou back and the base of the case 1 thou clearance all the way around. Lined up all the way around and barely worked the brass at all.It was accurate as hell and the brass lasted forever. I'm guessing you did the same thing. And I would love to set up the 7RM like that but as a hunting rifle I'm still not sure. Though the 1000yd BR guys have all the functional reliability a hunter would ever need
thanks
John
pm sent
Great. I like it. I first bumped the shoulder after talking to Lynn(wood) Harrell about his PPC dies. So it was like neck size with a button, shoulder bump, body "bump". He then made the rings for the bottom of the dies so you could size the body down .002". Or one. So we had 1thou clearance all the way around a turned neck, a shoulder 1 thou back and the base of the case 1 thou clearance all the way around. Lined up all the way around and barely worked the brass at all.It was accurate as hell and the brass lasted forever. I'm guessing you did the same thing. And I would love to set up the 7RM like that but as a hunting rifle I'm still not sure. Though the 1000yd BR guys have all the functional reliability a hunter would ever need
thanks
John
pm sent
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
If I may, let me ask a couple of questions, and make a couple of suggestions.
First of all, I believe that the current trend to short fat non-belted magnum cases is a good one. Although I do not have any magnums, I have spent considerable time helping friends with their magnum rifle building projects, helping them with the details of reamer prints, selecting gunsmiths, and working up loads for the finished rifles.
What are your performance goals for this rifle. I think that this is where you need to start. What bullet weight at what velocity? What is the rifle's target weight, with scope? Do you intend that it have a muzzle brake?
In my experience (and I have done this several times), once a caliber selection has been made, if heavily used fired brass is available, from any source, the best place to start is by buying your FL die first, sizing a number of cases, making sure that in the process their shoulders are bumped back a measured .001 or a little more, carefully measuring those sized cases at several points, and ordering a reamer that will cut a chamber with the desired clearances between it and the brass sized by that die. In addition, dummy rounds, should be made up, using a selection of bullets. loaded to fit in the magazine ( if one is to be used) can be sent to the reamer manufacturer with instructions that the length of the freebore be such that the bullet that ends up being the shortest from case head to where it would contact the rifling can be seated a given distance into the rifling, which should include some allowance for throat wear. Jumping back a bit, the reason for specifying heavily used brass is that, as you probably know, this brass will have a maximum of spring back, due to work hardening and will the largest sized cases from a given die. Otherwise a die that would work with new brass, might not size well used brass enough.
You mentioned setting dies with a stripped bolt. I recommend against that because it presupposes that the die is the correct size for the chamber, which it may not be, and if it is not, by the time that the desired feel is achieved, the shoulder could be pushed back far enough that case life is shortened significantly.
Years back, hunters that I knew how followed factory die setup directions, by adjusting their dies to touch their shell holders thought that the short case life that they were getting was because of "magnum pressures", and although they were loading hot, we have later learned it was because they were pushing their case shoulders back too far each time that they sized.
Another thing that I would like to address is Mr. Ackley, a real pioneer, and a great read. While we can still learn a lot from him, we have options that did not exist in his day, and it is those options that make it unnecessarry to do things like remove belts from magnum cases. We can simply choose a non belted case that is consistent with our goals and proceed from there. It is not that belts are such a problem, it is just that they offer no advantages with the options that we currently have. Car tires used to have tubes, but we have managed pretty well, for quite a while, without them.
Finally, an example of something that might suit the needs of a hunter that wants the accuracy needed for reliable long range work. I have a friend who has taken all of his non dangerous African game, with one shot I might add, and has done most of is hunting on this continent with a light weight, custom built 7mm WSM, shooting 175 gr. Sierra Matchkings, loaded to somewhere around 2,950 to 3,000 FPS. It is a veritable hammer, with laser like accuracy. He keeps a customized ( to hunt conditions and geography) drop and windage chart taped to the off side of the butt, uses a laser rangefinder for long shots, and has a trophy room full of heads and full body mounts to show for it.
First of all, I believe that the current trend to short fat non-belted magnum cases is a good one. Although I do not have any magnums, I have spent considerable time helping friends with their magnum rifle building projects, helping them with the details of reamer prints, selecting gunsmiths, and working up loads for the finished rifles.
What are your performance goals for this rifle. I think that this is where you need to start. What bullet weight at what velocity? What is the rifle's target weight, with scope? Do you intend that it have a muzzle brake?
In my experience (and I have done this several times), once a caliber selection has been made, if heavily used fired brass is available, from any source, the best place to start is by buying your FL die first, sizing a number of cases, making sure that in the process their shoulders are bumped back a measured .001 or a little more, carefully measuring those sized cases at several points, and ordering a reamer that will cut a chamber with the desired clearances between it and the brass sized by that die. In addition, dummy rounds, should be made up, using a selection of bullets. loaded to fit in the magazine ( if one is to be used) can be sent to the reamer manufacturer with instructions that the length of the freebore be such that the bullet that ends up being the shortest from case head to where it would contact the rifling can be seated a given distance into the rifling, which should include some allowance for throat wear. Jumping back a bit, the reason for specifying heavily used brass is that, as you probably know, this brass will have a maximum of spring back, due to work hardening and will the largest sized cases from a given die. Otherwise a die that would work with new brass, might not size well used brass enough.
You mentioned setting dies with a stripped bolt. I recommend against that because it presupposes that the die is the correct size for the chamber, which it may not be, and if it is not, by the time that the desired feel is achieved, the shoulder could be pushed back far enough that case life is shortened significantly.
Years back, hunters that I knew how followed factory die setup directions, by adjusting their dies to touch their shell holders thought that the short case life that they were getting was because of "magnum pressures", and although they were loading hot, we have later learned it was because they were pushing their case shoulders back too far each time that they sized.
Another thing that I would like to address is Mr. Ackley, a real pioneer, and a great read. While we can still learn a lot from him, we have options that did not exist in his day, and it is those options that make it unnecessarry to do things like remove belts from magnum cases. We can simply choose a non belted case that is consistent with our goals and proceed from there. It is not that belts are such a problem, it is just that they offer no advantages with the options that we currently have. Car tires used to have tubes, but we have managed pretty well, for quite a while, without them.
Finally, an example of something that might suit the needs of a hunter that wants the accuracy needed for reliable long range work. I have a friend who has taken all of his non dangerous African game, with one shot I might add, and has done most of is hunting on this continent with a light weight, custom built 7mm WSM, shooting 175 gr. Sierra Matchkings, loaded to somewhere around 2,950 to 3,000 FPS. It is a veritable hammer, with laser like accuracy. He keeps a customized ( to hunt conditions and geography) drop and windage chart taped to the off side of the butt, uses a laser rangefinder for long shots, and has a trophy room full of heads and full body mounts to show for it.
One trick I used to do on my .300 Win Mag was to neck new brass up to .33 caliber and then neck back down to create a false shoulder to head space on. Really made a huge difference in brass life. No reason it won't work for the 7 Mag. Just a thought. ;D
Regards,
Paul
www.boltfluting.com
Regards,
Paul
www.boltfluting.com
JohnMill
Gold $$ Contributor
Hey BoydAllen,
I'm a big fan. I'm always glad to read your responses.
As I stated before I like short/fat I would have chosen the 7SAUM for a balanced case and accuracy having shot at 1k and seeing it will stick them together. However, they are not available in numbers( read anywhere ) and the 7RM was in more than one place. Assuming we get through the mess we're in we'll then be able to get whatever we want. I think this shows the 7RM will be one of the last to go.
Bullets 168 & 180 Berger hunting VLD. I would have done a Nosler BT but they did not have the weight I wanted. Rifle weight heavy as I can get there with ( that means what the hell do I know). Scope depends on the jing and what euro optics has at the time. I don't care for muzzle brakes but may end up with one anyway. I may design it myself (got the book from the die guy)(Insert Nolan). I will use Forster dies as I 've never had a problem with them AND I like the people. There is a barrel maker I won't use again because I found them arrogant and rude.
I must tell you I do not see how setting the die by screwing it down just til the bolt handle drops closed, sizing it after every adjustment, could possibly end up with the shoulder too short. Pretty sure I described this elsewhere in this thread. At any rate I've used that for almost 20 years . I know about oversizing. The RM, SAUM, WSM 7s are all just about even. Don't think any game will know the diff. I would make one of each and take forever to choose but for being doomed to "Live in interesting times". OK I sure tired of those. Lets go back to ho hum prosperity.
So Boyd, having no magnums, what do you shoot or recommend?
Thanks John
I'm a big fan. I'm always glad to read your responses.
As I stated before I like short/fat I would have chosen the 7SAUM for a balanced case and accuracy having shot at 1k and seeing it will stick them together. However, they are not available in numbers( read anywhere ) and the 7RM was in more than one place. Assuming we get through the mess we're in we'll then be able to get whatever we want. I think this shows the 7RM will be one of the last to go.
Bullets 168 & 180 Berger hunting VLD. I would have done a Nosler BT but they did not have the weight I wanted. Rifle weight heavy as I can get there with ( that means what the hell do I know). Scope depends on the jing and what euro optics has at the time. I don't care for muzzle brakes but may end up with one anyway. I may design it myself (got the book from the die guy)(Insert Nolan). I will use Forster dies as I 've never had a problem with them AND I like the people. There is a barrel maker I won't use again because I found them arrogant and rude.
I must tell you I do not see how setting the die by screwing it down just til the bolt handle drops closed, sizing it after every adjustment, could possibly end up with the shoulder too short. Pretty sure I described this elsewhere in this thread. At any rate I've used that for almost 20 years . I know about oversizing. The RM, SAUM, WSM 7s are all just about even. Don't think any game will know the diff. I would make one of each and take forever to choose but for being doomed to "Live in interesting times". OK I sure tired of those. Lets go back to ho hum prosperity.
So Boyd, having no magnums, what do you shoot or recommend?
Thanks John
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
My magnum experience is limited to being the main technical resource (ordering reamers and putting them with the right gunsmiths) for friends' projects that include .300 Wby. 7mmWSM, .338 Lapua, a wildcat version of that caliber with a 37 degree shoulder, the same case in .30 cal., and a few others that I can't remember. I have not need of a magnum. but I have spent a lot of times running the load workup process for their rifles, loading at the range, while letting THEM develop their flinches ;-) I would be more interested in shooting at longer distances if there was a range that had them at a convenient distance.
One thing that I try to help people avoid, when planning projects, is having the tail wag the dog.
The way that you can end up with the shoulder too far back is if the base of the die is too large for the back of the chamber. By the time that the feel is where you want it, the shoulder is too far back. This is not theoretical. I have seen it more than once. If you cannot get the feel that you want with a measured bump of the correct specification, you need a different die for that chamber, or you will have to enlarge the chamber to work with the die. I am always amazed at the number of reloaders that resist measuring. I think that they must be nostalgic for the days when reloading was simpler, because we didn't know any better. Of course with typical factory chambers, and the usual one piece FL dies, there is not much of a chance that this will happen, but I assume that when we are talking project rifles, built for accuracy, that these are not the conditions.
As far as recommendations go, form what I have seen, if they can reach your performance goals, I like the short magnums. I think that they will continue to be available, and when it comes to performance, nostalgia is not a factor that I consider at all. On the other hand, hobbies are all about doing it your way. Go for it!
Added later: I forgot to mention a complete project that I worked up for a friend...a very light sub half inch (three shots) .270 WSM, I handled the entire project for him. Stiller action, Krieger chromoly barrel (headed to cold weather) Cerakote, Hi Tech, stock, pillar bedded, special order reamer, muzzle brake. Picked out all of the parts and made arrangements for all the work. He was tickled.
One thing that I try to help people avoid, when planning projects, is having the tail wag the dog.
The way that you can end up with the shoulder too far back is if the base of the die is too large for the back of the chamber. By the time that the feel is where you want it, the shoulder is too far back. This is not theoretical. I have seen it more than once. If you cannot get the feel that you want with a measured bump of the correct specification, you need a different die for that chamber, or you will have to enlarge the chamber to work with the die. I am always amazed at the number of reloaders that resist measuring. I think that they must be nostalgic for the days when reloading was simpler, because we didn't know any better. Of course with typical factory chambers, and the usual one piece FL dies, there is not much of a chance that this will happen, but I assume that when we are talking project rifles, built for accuracy, that these are not the conditions.
As far as recommendations go, form what I have seen, if they can reach your performance goals, I like the short magnums. I think that they will continue to be available, and when it comes to performance, nostalgia is not a factor that I consider at all. On the other hand, hobbies are all about doing it your way. Go for it!
Added later: I forgot to mention a complete project that I worked up for a friend...a very light sub half inch (three shots) .270 WSM, I handled the entire project for him. Stiller action, Krieger chromoly barrel (headed to cold weather) Cerakote, Hi Tech, stock, pillar bedded, special order reamer, muzzle brake. Picked out all of the parts and made arrangements for all the work. He was tickled.
I did a 30 cal similar to your idea and turned of the belts and did load development with one case and didn't have any issues. Mine looks like a 3/4 size 300 RUM.
Heavy barrel
Silver $$ Contributor
Please
BTW: What is a "Trade Count" that's over there to the upper left? I have a zero (0) Trade Count and other people are way up there?
[/quote]
The trade count is like the feedback number on e-bay. When you buy from someone in the classifieds you can give each other feedback. It lets you know the guy it good to deal with.
JohnMill
Gold $$ Contributor
Hey Spitfire,
Fill us in. How did you cut the belt ? What did you cut it to? Was it chambered without a belt recess? Do you have a chamber print or a print number? Did you do the work? Did you have custom dies? I ask because I always buy a resize reamer just in case I'm not satisfied with the dies I can buy.
Do you have any pitchers?
Thanks
John
Fill us in. How did you cut the belt ? What did you cut it to? Was it chambered without a belt recess? Do you have a chamber print or a print number? Did you do the work? Did you have custom dies? I ask because I always buy a resize reamer just in case I'm not satisfied with the dies I can buy.
Do you have any pitchers?
Thanks
John
This round was the coloboration of my wifes uncle whom is a smith again after a several year break, and myself. I've been doing my own smithing for about 6 years now.
I turned the belts on a mini lathe just chucked up in a 3 jaw chuck, however, I'm going to ream out a blank to chuck up in the lathe then put the case in the blank to get a good concentric turn on the case, then run a live center up into the primer pocket.
The chamber was cut with an old custom reamer that my wifes uncle did up several years ago in a 30-8mm with a 30 degree shoulder. This reamer was held short about 0.300" which allowed for a snug headspace on a standard .308 Norma case. This reamer is 0.513" just ahead of the 8mm mag case belt which allows for a good fit for the new 308 case after the belt has been turned off. Only downside to this is my rim is now 0.007" wider on each side, but this does not seem to cause any issues like the .220 swift does. I had an old batch of 308 norma brass and for some reason the rim is 0.527" instead of the standard 0.531"?
I did all the work on it, and as for a print, no I don't have one, the photo is the best I can come up with at the moment. The photos shows my cartridge on top and a .300 WM on the bottom. I might send out a couple cases to have a specific reamer made for it.
As for dies, mine is just a hunting rifle and the first 3 shot group out of the gun was a clover leaf with a proven .308 Norma load. I only tested about 50 rounds through this gun before I started on other projects so I'll probably work with it more this summer. The dies I used initiall were a custom neck sizer that my Wife's grandfather made (master smith for 45+ years). Then for seaters I have been using the vickerman inline seating dies. I am going to just buy some .300 SAUM dies which have been working for me in a 280 Imp with good accuracy (7 saum dies for that one). All i'm doing there is neck sizing. Not the best way to go about it, but for testing, it's a cheap way to test a rifle without spending the money on custom dies. Custom dies are always easy enough and relatively cheap if you are only doing one or two wildcats. I have a couple sets of Wilson inline seaters blanks I'm going to get for a couple other rifles so that's always an option for seating too. I have heard of decent results with the Hornady neck dies too depending on what you plan to do with your rifle and how much accuracy you are looking for.
anyways kinda a brief overview but hopefully that answers all your questions.
I turned the belts on a mini lathe just chucked up in a 3 jaw chuck, however, I'm going to ream out a blank to chuck up in the lathe then put the case in the blank to get a good concentric turn on the case, then run a live center up into the primer pocket.
The chamber was cut with an old custom reamer that my wifes uncle did up several years ago in a 30-8mm with a 30 degree shoulder. This reamer was held short about 0.300" which allowed for a snug headspace on a standard .308 Norma case. This reamer is 0.513" just ahead of the 8mm mag case belt which allows for a good fit for the new 308 case after the belt has been turned off. Only downside to this is my rim is now 0.007" wider on each side, but this does not seem to cause any issues like the .220 swift does. I had an old batch of 308 norma brass and for some reason the rim is 0.527" instead of the standard 0.531"?
I did all the work on it, and as for a print, no I don't have one, the photo is the best I can come up with at the moment. The photos shows my cartridge on top and a .300 WM on the bottom. I might send out a couple cases to have a specific reamer made for it.
As for dies, mine is just a hunting rifle and the first 3 shot group out of the gun was a clover leaf with a proven .308 Norma load. I only tested about 50 rounds through this gun before I started on other projects so I'll probably work with it more this summer. The dies I used initiall were a custom neck sizer that my Wife's grandfather made (master smith for 45+ years). Then for seaters I have been using the vickerman inline seating dies. I am going to just buy some .300 SAUM dies which have been working for me in a 280 Imp with good accuracy (7 saum dies for that one). All i'm doing there is neck sizing. Not the best way to go about it, but for testing, it's a cheap way to test a rifle without spending the money on custom dies. Custom dies are always easy enough and relatively cheap if you are only doing one or two wildcats. I have a couple sets of Wilson inline seaters blanks I'm going to get for a couple other rifles so that's always an option for seating too. I have heard of decent results with the Hornady neck dies too depending on what you plan to do with your rifle and how much accuracy you are looking for.
anyways kinda a brief overview but hopefully that answers all your questions.
Attachments
If you were still thinking about doing the 7 mag without a belt, the only thing other than setting up correct headspace would be turning off belts. Dies would be as simple as using any 7 mag die you wanted.
Similar threads
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.