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Remove the belt?

JohnMill

Gold $$ Contributor
I think this may have been covered but........... I'm about to build a 7mm Rem Mag. I have heard of removing the belt with no ill effect. If I do will I have to buy a reamer without a belt? what sort of headspace gauge do you order then. Is there a wildcat in this form already. I have a custom action, a 7mm 1-9 bbl, a choice of 3 stocks. And I own the 2 piece die for dealing with belted mags. I'm just starting to wonder if I couldn't dispense with the belt easily (enough) for the cases to be treated in a normal way
Thanks in advance for any info

John
 
20 years ago my good friend Don Jones built a PD rifle to take with us to NM. It was a 7RemMag necked to 6MM and a 40 degree shoulder. He turned the belts off of the cases. During load developement we encountered loose primer pockets by the 2nd firing. He went back and bored a belt in the chamber, made new cases with the belt and the cases outlasted the barrel. About 750 rounds in all on 50 cases. He was using a very stiff load of Re22 and 107 Sierra MK bullets at 35-3600 FPS.
 
Listen to Doc,
Why don't you build a 7 MM SAUM and be done with that pesky belt..
It will do anything the 7 MAG will do, with a lot less headaches.......
 
Don't worry about the belt ;) If you set up your sizing die correctly, you'll be head spacing off the shoulder.
 
JRS said:
Don't worry about the belt ;) If you set up your sizing die correctly, you'll be head spacing off the shoulder.

Please expand on this JRS as it's a pretty important subject. How is it done and what are you looking for when you do it? I've often wondered if the final step in perfecting the perfect round was taking the belt off of the 7mm Rem Mag.

But I also agree about the 7mm SAUM.

Bronc

BTW: What is a "Trade Count" that's over there to the upper left? I have a zero (0) Trade Count and other people are way up there?
 
Why not a 7mm/wsm.It is powerful and will take almost all game on the continent.
 
Preacher said:
Listen to Doc,
Why don't you build a 7 MM SAUM and be done with that pesky belt..
It will do anything the 7 MAG will do, with a lot less headaches.......

What he said.
I have and load for both. Wanna buy a 7mm RM? I'm keeping my 3 RSAUM's!
 
I hope this thread gets much deeper into the tech side of this but first I would choose the 7RM because Ackley ( I think )_ said that it was the best 7 for powder cap. to bore size. There was an expanding flask theory or formula that I don't remember and was never fully conversant with anyway That may be modified by--modern powders, short/fat theory, better barrels (questionable), coated bullets. I read the Gunwerks article on long range and that did refer to the 7RM. I have been looking through all the different 7s (ammoguide & here) and The 7RM seems the top to me though the SAUM is right there.
JRS. Yes I have bumped the shoulders since I read Neil Jones who stated that if you bump the shoulder from the beginning You will avoid case separation. That is accurate if simplified. I switch between 1/2 bolt handle drop and thumb pressure down and full bolt handle drop.
Doc and Preacher; I sort of feel the experience Doc had involved unexpained/unexplored factors in play. I have shot many high (high high) pressure loads and primer pockets have not been the problem that stopped me.
The Belt. I have read a couple responses on this site about removing the belt. I have searched for them (not exhaustively) but I couldn't find them. I know there was at least one article in either Handloader, Rifle, or Precision Shooting describing the process.
Please keep it coming.
Thanks John
 
There is just something "special" about a one-off rifle. They become a real pain-in-the-ass, unless it is True-Love... Turning belts off brass is gonna get old quick.

Own a good supply of brass already? I would buy that before you order a reamer. SAUM brass is not readily available at most outlets. Might not be found anywhere right now.

7mm Rem Mag is a FINE all-around ctg. Gonna handload for it? Then have your gunsmith ream your chamber to go-gauge minimum or even under go-gauge. That will get you a shoulder headspace and yield best brass life. Get a Wilson Case Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic for your ctg. Measure virgin cases. Probably find they are very much below go-gauge dimension oal. The less oal expansion you have upon first-firing, the better your case life will be. Better precision at the target also.

7mm Rem is out of favor like most belted magnums. Probably find brass for it pretty easy on the forums. Newer flavor magnums not so easy. .284 win, not so easy.

The most versatile round for your consideration in 7mm is the .280rem AI. Better barrel life than a heavier powder burning magnum. Easier to obtain brass from almost any .30-06 variant. More flexible in powder charge variety. Get the faster twist barrel if you want to shoot the heaviest VLD/SMK match bullets. .625 BC from the 162 A-Max. Good luck finding bullets...

Best barrel life and greater access to brass will make a 280 rem or AI, or even the 7mm-08 a rifle you can shoot more often. Buy a Lyman or RCBS bore-riding bullet mold if you want to do even more with your new 7mm.
 
If you just have to have something different, why not a 7mm-375Ruger? You loose the belt, and gain powder space. Though brass could become hard to come by when the cartridge is discontinued, which is inevitable, sorry, the 375H&H will always rule the roost. I keep hearing how belted cases are not accurate, yet the 300 Win Mag ruled long range. For a hunting rifle, keep it simple stupid. I absolutely hate packing ammo and rifle separate when I travel, loose the ammo and the rifle becomes an expensive boat paddle. You can find 7mm Remington Mag ammo everywhere, try and find 6.5×284, 358 Norma or anything wildcatted. Standard ammo can be used in ackley chambers, which could save the hunt. Just my rambling thoughts and opinions, take em or leave em. ;)
 
Bronc,

here's what I wrote a couple of months back on this subject in an article on handloading the old Russian 7.62X54R military number in the December 2012 issue of the free to download magazine TargetShooter online (www.targetshooter.co.uk). While a rimmed cartridge, the same issues and solutions apply:

Headspace
There is another issue related to the rimmed set-up – case to chamber fit and adjusting the die in the press. What do I mean by that? Rimless cartridges ‘headspace on the shoulder’, or to put it into plain English, they must be a close fit lengthwise between the bolt-face and shoulder section of the chamber – just enough clearance for the cartridge to be chambered easily. In precision ammunition, we’re looking for a mere 0.001” to 0.002” clearance. Rimmed (and belted) ammunition is different. Headspace is determined by the fit of the rim (or belt) between the bolt-face and the front end of the rim / belt recess machined into the rear of the barrel / chamber. As the cartridge is securely located at its back end, this set-up allows the manufacturer to chamber the barrel with deliberately oversize dimensions up front where the top of the case-body and shoulder section lie giving a loose cartridge fit in this area. This offers advantages to military users and dangerous game hunters, principally 100% reliable chambering and ignition even when the barrel and its chamber are filthy, glowing red-hot from continuous firing, and/or the ammunition is dented, dirty, or out of specification wartime manufactured stuff, and so on. Where clearances exist, the case simply fireforms up to the chamber dimensions. This might be great for soldiers and lion hunters, but doesn’t do much for the target shooting handloader – resize that blown out case back down to something close to its original dimensions, and a massive amount of brass working takes place on each firing / resizing cycle doing nothing good to case life, or probably accuracy. One answer is neck sizing, but that’s not necessary if you set your FL die up properly.

As with rimless designs, it comes back to measuring and comparing fireformed against sized / unfired cases straight out of the die and adjusting the sizer die in the press to avoid pushing the shoulder back more than a few thou’. Unlike most of the .303 Enfields I’ve owned over the years, visual inspection of the cases and the amount of effort needed on my Redding T7 press-handle to full-length size them fooled me into thinking my M1891/30 was fairly tightly chambered. Nevertheless, in the interests of doing things properly in researching this feature, I thought I’d measure the ‘before’ and ‘after’ case-head to shoulder dimensions using a Hornady L-N-L comparator and headspace gauge insert. The results surprised me – fired cases measured 1.659” – 1.660”, while after full-length sizing with the die set to the ‘default position’ (base in hard contact with the shellholder at full press operation) the reading changed to 1.622”, 38 thou’ of shoulder set-back, far too much. The answer is to back the die out and reset it using the ‘headspace gauge’ (not an accurate term, but we don’t seem to have a better one) so that sizing only moves the shoulder a little, 0.003-0.005”. It’s also a good idea to try a few sized cases in the rifle chamber to ensure they still chamber freely before undertaking the final loading steps. Another tip here is to decap the fired case before measuring it as any primer protrusion will give a false reading.


In the days when .300 Win Mag was a widely used long-range target cartridge, people sized them to give minimal or no shoulder to chamber clearance. This usually (invariably?) not only changed the headspacing method to that of a rimless type, but moved the belt fractionally off contact with the front of its recess. Reducing shoulder to chamber clearances to nil / a couple of thou' may not be a good idea in a hunting rifle however unless each resized case is tried out in the rifle chamber before charging and bullets seating. Even in hunting rifles, reducing clearances 'up front' to maybe 3 or 4 thou' is a good idea as it will give better accuracy and case-life.

The reason for the belt is widely misunderstood. Its original (and the correct purpose) as devised by Holland & Holland back in 1912 when they introduced it was to give the positive rear of the chamber headspacing that a rimmed case provides, but without the rim's disadvantage of potential jams in feeding from a magazine fed bolt-action rifle (very bad news if the quarry is dangerous and attempting to get at you / kill you after you've missed, or worse, wounded it with the first shot). The belted case feeds almost as well as a rimless example, but gives the rear-end lock-up and headspace. As noted, there are pluses too for people using belted ammo with lots of built-in clearances in dirty, humid, very, very hot etc etc tropical climates and other off the beaten track environments when the chances of a jam, stuck case etc were reduced.

The belt has nothing much to do with case strength as is usually thought - a well designed rimless case will be as strong as a belted one. (Although as noted, turning the belt off may end up making it weaker than an equivalent rimless design.)

Roy Weatherby created the belted magnum sporting cartridge fad that has only recently started to peter out. Having used belted H&H brass as the basis of most of his hot magnums, and all his early introductions, the market came to expect a belt on a really powerful cartridge. So, for decades, Remington and Winchester made all their top-performance magnums in this form even though there are no benefits and various downsides in using this form on European and North American non-dangerous game. That's not to knock the 300 Win Mag, 300 H&H Mag, 7mm Rem Mag and others. They're good cartridges, they work. Just be aware of the issue of the slack case to chamber top of the body / shoulders fit.
 
When FL sizing (actually body sizing since primarily neck size) for my 300 WM, I set up my dies as mentioned in Laurie's post but bump the shoulder between .001 and .0015. I use and Innovative Technologies gauge with the primers decapped to assure getting and accurate measurements and annealing the brass makes for more consistent sizing. This has extended the life of the brass considerably as well as improving accuracy. I have never had a chambering issue by doing so. I haven't set up my dies to contact the shell holder but found that new brass is in the range of .017 shorter than fired brass.
 
Zia Hunter said:
When FL sizing (actually body sizing since primarily neck size) for my 300 WM, I set up my dies as mentioned in Laurie's post but bump the shoulder between .001 and .0015. I use and Innovative Technologies gauge with the primers decapped to assure getting and accurate measurements and annealing the brass makes for more consistent sizing. This has extended the life of the brass considerably as well as improving accuracy. I have never had a chambering issue by doing so. I haven't set up my dies to contact the shell holder but found that new brass is in the range of .017 shorter than fired brass.

Spot on, I use this basic process and my 7mm and .300wm brass lasts as long as any other brass of those powder capacities do!
Wayne.
 
Man oh man,
I went away for a while and you guys poured it on. Thanks. It's great
Bronca hit it on the head-perfecting the perfect round (more perfectering)
Glennin You are right. It is a hunting rifle. Keep it simple. BUT, I'm a target shooter at heart.
JRS and Mulhern, great seeing you guys again I know you both could add a lot more but that's OK. Short and good is good
Laurie did address a thing that I worried about which was; If you cut a minimum belted chamber and you ootch your sizing die up so you achieve a bare(ly) bolt handle drop with a bare bolt what happens if you back the belt up a thou (or 2)? Or does that happen?Amazing the concept of the belt and the rims allowing for positive function in life threatening situations. Never thought of that and never would have. I do set my dies .002 tension neck size( or 3), shoulder bump.001-.0015. I used to set for slight crush chambering but that upsets the bags I was told (by real good shooters) so I quit that.
Boz and Zia Hunter, we use the same sizing process. I never checked the shoulder position prior to FF as I just bullet jam and fire but I am surprised at that much shorter.
Hogan I wasn't thinking so much about one off special as I was most accurate special. I wouldn't mind shaving 25 belts at a time if i can get them to last. I'm set up to anneal. My bolt face is mag so the 280 will have to wait less I can get another bolt from Pacific or from the maker. I do chamber using a Lambeth-Kiff micrometer reamer stop. But they weren't belted. The first one was OK but then I ran into Viper and he splained me to it now my chambers are deluxe but still not belted. The thing is if you chamber for a real tight ( minimum dimension) on the headspace gauge but the gauge is for headspacing off the belt , how do you then switch to headspacing off the shoulder without leaving the belt out in space. Stop Sorry my headspace just connected with that headspace. I'm not typing it over sorry. I'll Polly visit you back when I do the 280.
Again thanks to everyone that answered. Y'all are what makes this site tick.

John
 
Hey John:

Why not just chamber for the 7 BOO BOO and be done with it ;) 8)
RWS makes the toughest, longest lasting and most consistent brass money can buy ;D
 
I'm not familiar with the Boo Boo except to see it in the result sheet from Williamsport. Maybe other places as I may have seen it in the NBRSA magazine. Is it in the Pacific print book? Or JGL? I got both of them

Thanks John
 
If I'm not mistaken John, the BOO BOO reamers are propriety. Dave Tooley only. I was going to go that route at one time with a 6.5 version, but ended up with a 6.5x68 improved. It has a substantial boiler.
 
Hey JRS, I appreciate the info.
I don't shoot a 6CM because I couldn't buy a reamer. I shoot an awsomely accurate turned neck 6SuperLR(thank you Robert Whitley) I do understand the hard work that goes into a design and I would never use it without giving proper credit. I bought too much equipment and went to too many classes to not do my own barrel work.
That said when I first got the bug for long range hunting My criteria was ; Sufficient energy at 1000 plus to quickly end it for big game. Great accuracy. Don't care for recoil so I won't take big hits unless it IS necessary. As I said in the beginning I read the Gunwerks article and it pointed out that the 7RM is good for a thou. I chose a 7mm because the 6.5 does not carry the mass though they certainly have the accuracy in spades. 30s too much of a good thing. 7SAUM is probably as good but they can pull the brass rug out from under you any time. I remember back in the early 90s having to make my first set of 6PPC cases out of AK brass. Sinclair sold a form die set for that very thing so it could have been worse
Thanks for your advice I welcome any more you've got if I opened anymore doors.

John
 
John:

Realizing now ::) you do your own chambering, you have a great opportunity to set your own head spacing. DON'T use the standard belted magnum go-gauge. Make or purchase one that measures .217 at the top of the belt, rather than the standard .220. This will put an end to the bulge above the belt. Start with virgin brass, fire it one time, then set up your sizing die (properly) as you would for a non-belted case. DON'T screw the die down to touch the shell holder. PROPERLY adjust the die to bump the shoulder back .001-.002. One of the good features of the belt is this John: even if you go too far with the chambering and end up with excessive head spacing, you have the safety factor of the case head spacing off the belt. One thing for certain is that like the .375 H&H, the 7MM Remington mag will be with us forever. Good choice on the cartridge ;) 8)
 

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