Rem 700 Bolts furnace brazed using copper alloy filler metal at about 2000 deg. F.

[Greg Y]

Have it tig welded. Then it won’t break and it will be timed correctly if it’s done by the right guy. That’s what Chad at longrifles inc does.

Time & tig

That's the other unspoken benefit. I built a piece that threads into the back of the bolt and reaches over the bolt handle. The bolt can then be timed to that action and a set screw locked down to hold the handle...... then, tig it up.

It's a bit intimidating the first time. After that....it's easier to knock the handle off to do do bolt work and weld it on than it is to try and square it up in a jig.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

That's the other unspoken benefit. I built a piece that threads into the back of the bolt and reaches over the bolt handle. The bolt can then be timed to that action and a set screw locked down to hold the handle...... then, tig it up.

It's a bit intimidating the first time. After that....it's easier to knock the handle off to do do bolt work and weld it on than it is to try and square it up in a jig.

Yes

I don’t know how long it’s taking Chad now but he used to do the works on a 700 in way under an hour. And that’s several procedures. As in everything imaginable. Very cool.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Wild Bill,
Thanks for sharing. I know just enough about welding to be really dangerous! Lol.
Paul

I'm not a welder!!! This was from an old drawing of the tower which referenced a specification from the API standards which I had to future research!!! This wasn't the welders first rodeo!!!!! He knew the spec long before I did!!!!

 

[AlNyhus]

No one on this thread understands what prep work needs to be done on 4000 series chrome moly steel!!!

Same for race car and some bicycle frames made of 4000 series steels (4130, 4140)!!!

You might to rethink your statements.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

You might to rethink your statements.

This is before mig and tig welding becoming popular!!! Don't know the prep work for those methods of welding on chrome moly steel (4000 series steel)!!! The API spec were from long ago for arc welding procedures!!! Sorry, bicycle frames, race car roll over cages!!! Not frames!!!

One thing that floored me working at the oil field Fab shop was hardness finishes!!! Parts we sent out were furnace hardened and quenched!! The unpolished finish was a black and/or blushish shiny surface finish. I came across a company that vacuum/oven hardened!! Those unpolished surfaces were a Silvery grey matte finish that was just as smooth on the Shore Scale!! IT BLEW MY MIND!!! Even after hardness testing (Rockwell scale) the power gear box shafts, the vacuum/oven shafts were more consistent through the shafts!!!

 

[AlNyhus]

This is before mig and tig welding becoming popular!!! Don't know the prep work for those methods of welding on chrome moly steel (4000 series steel)!!! The API spec were from long ago for arc welding procedures!!! Sorry, bicycle frames, race car roll over cages!!! Not frames!!!

N.H.R.A. and S.F.I. mandate the use of T.I.G. welding for any 4130 aka 'chrome moly' used in race car fabrication...whether it's a complete chassis or simpler components. Every other professional sanctioning body follows this standard, as well.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

N.H.R.A. and S.F.I. mandate the use of T.I.G. welding for any 4130 aka 'chrome moly' used in race car fabrication...whether it's a complete chassis or simpler components. Every other professional sanctioning body follows this standard, as well.

We worked on dirt track cars!!!! The problem we are having is this, I'm not a welder!! Plus, there are different procedures for each type of welding used on 4000 steels!! I know, the procedure for stick welding of 4000 steels!!! Don't know the procedures for MIG and TIG!!! I just want to warning forum members, research if you don't know the welding procedures for 4000 steels (Chrome Moly Alloy Steels)!!! I have seen crystallization fractures at the weld joints in 4000 steels!! Found them by Magnaflux!!!! And they occur at the metal/weld junction!!! Not in the weld itself!!!

 

[WSnyder]

I used to work with silver soldering Cu tubing on refrigeration compressors. There are many silver solder alloys. You would be surprised at how low the melting temp is on some of them. Tig welding would be the least damaging to the bolt heat treatment and strength.

I am not surprised at all about low temp solder process temps, I use them all the time. I have used many types of filler metals for many different purposes. Low temp solders, high temp silver brazing. Neither of those are the same as a Cu (copper) brazing filler material that Remington used in the original assemblies. The Cu comes in at a much higher process temp than the other two. A low temp solder such as Stay Bright would be applicable to a refrigeration repair but would likely quickly fail if used on a bolt handle. A cadmium containing silver braze material is a fine choice as is tig welding for that purpose. I tig most of mine but have used cad silver braze. Maybe it also needs to be said that brazing and soldering are two different animals.

 

[WSnyder]

N.H.R.A. and S.F.I. mandate the use of T.I.G. welding for any 4130 aka 'chrome moly' used in race car fabrication...whether it's a complete chassis or simpler components. Every other professional sanctioning body follows this standard, as well.

FWIW SCORE does not specify which welding process must be used other than “no oxy-acetylene brazing or welding allowed”. I was always baffled by that and it still appears to be true today. They interchangeably allow 4130, 1018/1036 DOM tubing in the construction with no change in material diameter or wall thickness depending on material used as NHRA does. We used to mig weld VW Bug SCORE cages with 1.5x.095 4130 and never had issues. All the track and drag cars using 4130 were tig’d.

 

[AlNyhus]

FWIW SCORE does not specify which welding process must be used other than “no oxy-acetylene brazing or welding allowed”. I was always baffled by that and it still appears to be true today. They interchangeably allow 4130, 1018/1036 DOM tubing in the construction with no change in material diameter or wall thickness depending on material used as NHRA does. We used to mig weld VW Bug SCORE cages with 1.5x.095 4130 and never had issues. All the track and drag cars using 4130 were tig’d.

Here's the info on S.F.I.

SFI Foundation

Welcome to SFI Foundation The SFI Foundation, Inc. (SFI) is a non-profit organization established to issue and administer standards for the quality assurance of specialty performance and racing equipment. The SFI Foundation has served the automotive aftermarket and the motorsports industry since...

sfifoundation.com

Here's the sanctioning bodies that follow the S.F.I. guidelines for safety.

Members | SFI Foundation

The following sanctioning bodies are members of the SFI Foundation, Inc. Each organization listed here utilizes SFI Specifications within its rulebook.

sfifoundation.com

Then there are Affiliates that use the S.F.I. guidelines in their rules. S.C.O.R.E. is listed as affiliate.

Affiliates | SFI Foundation

The following sanctioning bodies are affiliates of the SFI Foundation, Inc. Each organization listed here utilizes SFI Specifications within its rulebook.

sfifoundation.com

 

[WSnyder]

SCORE still does not call out tig as a requirement for welding 4130. They do however warn (liability reasons I suspect) about using heat treated or high carbon steels and bad fabrication can be problematic. Does bad fabrication include not using tig as the welding process for 4130? I’d probably say so and I’d also bet that’s their liability out if there was an issue.

To be clear I’m not saying SCORE is correct in these rules I’m just pointing them out. I wouldn’t choose to mig weld those VW 4130 cages today, it’s just what was allowed and what people could afford back in those days.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Does Remington have to comply with SCORE, CFI, it NHRA standards, rules, specification, and certification??? Does API have to comply too?????
What does certification of race car drives underwear, CFI,have to do with this thread??? CFI is the UL (Underwriters Laboratory) of race driver protective clothing and restraints!!!

As shooter reloaders we just need to be aware of the materials we use, and how to fix them safely to avoid possible injury or damage!!! I agree on TIG welding on 4000 steels!! But what prep work and procedures are required to avoid changing the wanted properties when using TIG, MIG, Stick welding, soldiering, or brazing on Chrome Moly Steel alloys to avoid changing the crystalline structure and needed hardness!!!! And the last thing you don't want to happen, is having heat get to the bolt lugs and face and annealing that critical area making it softer!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ENJOY BEING FORCED FEED A BOLT!!!!!
The point is these, ROCKWELL hardness test before, and after if heat is involved in a repair or modification!!! These goes for the bolt, reciever, barrel, etc!!! BE SAFE, STAY ALIVE, AVOID INJURY!!!

 

[Greg Y]

4130 isn't difficult to weld and there's procedures for almost every process.....but GTAW is the most common because it heats and cools so much slower than SMAW of MIG.....and it looks great.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Does Remington have to comply with SCORE, CFI, it NHRA standards, rules, specification, and certification??? Does API have to comply too?????
What does certification of race car drives underwear, CFI,have to do with this thread??? CFI is the UL (Underwriters Laboratory) of race driver protective clothing and restraints!!!

As shooter reloaders we just need to be aware of the materials we use, and how to fix them safely to avoid possible injury or damage!!! I agree on TIG welding on 4000 steels!! But what prep work and procedures are required to avoid changing the wanted properties when using TIG, MIG, Stick welding, soldiering, or brazing on Chrome Moly Steel alloys to avoid changing the crystalline structure and needed hardness!!!! And the last thing you don't want to happen, is having heat get to the bolt lugs and face and annealing that critical area making it softer!

NOBODY IS GOING TO ENJOY BEING FORCED FEED A BOLT!!!!!
The point is these, ROCKWELL hardness test before, and after if heat is involved in a repair or modification!!! BE SAFE, STAY ALIVE, AVOID INJURY!!!

You've already forgotten, You're the one that brought up specs and said nobody in this thread understands prep work. Hell, I'm still dumbfounded by your rant on how carbide grows over time, You got some science for that one?

 

[Wild Bill IV]

You've already forgotten, You're the one that brought up specs and said nobody in this thread understands prep work. Hell, I'm still dumbfounded by your rant on how carbide grows over time, You got some science for that one?

Yeah, that was a good one!! It does grow!!! The Tungsten oxides with time!!!

 

[Sniperhandle]

Yeah, that was a good one!! It does grow!!! The Tungsten oxides with time!!!

Google Search

 

[DShortt]

'If you're arguing with an idiot, then what's the other guy doing?'

 

[WSnyder]

4130 isn't difficult to weld and there's procedures for almost every process.....but GTAW is the most common because it heats and cools so much slower than SMAW of MIG.....and it looks great.

4130 is easy to weld compared to mild steel. Much less junk and crap in it to mess with you

Tip: If you get an inclusion or piece of junk while tigging steel use a dab of stainless filler to get you through that spot.

 

[J.d. Popkes]

'If you're arguing with an idiot, then what's the other guy doing?'

I’m going to use that. Thanks

 

[kendog]

Hello Ken, how are you? I'm loving it in Nevada,but miss the good normal times in CA.

Were good, thanks. How about you? We moved to AZ last year. Only thing we miss about CA is the weather.