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reloads vs factory ammo

l'm old, retired, and POOR. l only shoot well enough to get the job done. To do that l need constant practice.
Its EXPENSIVE. So, l load/make my own ammo.
Reloading for me has other benefits. Great physical exercise pulling the handle on a Rock Chucker or trimming cases. lt also helps to keep me mentally sharp.
 
Yesterday, a shooter next to me was shooting Federal Premium Gold Medal 168 SMK's with his .308 AR-10 that had a 26" barrel. Being curious as to the velocity of this Federal ammo, he let me set my little Garmin on is shooting table while he fired 10 rounds to record. To my surprise, the average MV was 2709 fps (right where I my loads do well) with an SD of 8.4 and an ES of 25. That's way better than I ever used to get with Federal's best grade of ammo and looks like they might be doing better with quality control. Now I'm so curious, I feel like I'll have to retest this out of my gun to see if this might just be an adoration. :rolleyes:
Couldn't find a box of Federal Premium Gold Medal 168 SMK's, but got some 175 SMK's to run this test again. The 20 rounds of the box were all measured and the numbers recorded, then pulled the bullets from 10 of them, measured the powder and recharged the cases with the same powder but with each having the average (measure with FX-120i). BTW: the powder looked very much like the AR-Comp that I use and it's what I've heard that Federal is using in these Premium Gold Medal cartridges. Bullets were all reseated to what the average CBTO was for all 20. On the chart below you can see corresponding numbers prior to being modified. Velocities also correspond to the same cartridge data.
Federal Factory Numbers.jpg
Like the test I did years ago, the redone cartridges performed better, though there wasn't as much difference as I had gotten then.

What I got on paper was better than the test I did before too, both for the factory cartridges and the reworked ones. See group info in picture below. In the pic below, the first two 5 shot groups was the untouched factory loads and the second two groups are the modified ones.

Note: while shooting the 3rd group, I was fighting my old eye as they were watering and making it really hard to a good focus. The first shot of that last group was so bad as I jerked the shot way left trying to get the shot off as I was blinking to clear my eyes for a clear focus. I got off the bench and took some time to clear my eyes before trying to finish the group. After taking some time for clearing my eyes, the next four shots were way better than I would have expected (a little luck helps too) ;).

Federal Factory Groups.JPG
 
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Every met an avid fly fisherman who doesn't tie his own flies? Or an offshore fisherman who doesn't rig his own baits? Ever met a hunter who paid someone else to take him hunting?
I never learned to tie flies. The two guys I fished with were both commercial tiers. When we went fishing, Paul, or Dave, or both, would hand me a film case or baggie of flies. :)

Of course, I reloaded for them.
 
BTW: the powder looked very much like the AR-Comp that I use and it's what I've heard that Federal is using in these Premium Gold Medal cartridges.

No idea if it's still true (actually, no idea if it was true when I first heard it, years ago), but the rumor was that large manufacturers use powders that are not necessarily available through retail channels (bulk pre-adjusted purchases), and tweak them to get the specific burn characteristics they want. Bottom line is that trying to compare and match the actual powder in a given commercial cartridge may be an iffy proposition.
 
Couldn't buy the bullet I wanted to use for hunting in factory ammo in 1980, so, bought a reloading kit and solved that issue. I'd never been happy with the way factory ammo shot back then either, only ever had a very few boxes of facory ammo since then that shot worth krap. I only buy it when I get a rifle in a new cartridge, to test the gun out and sight it in, and have some idea of a baseline on the gun. I found that if I did acquire a good box, couldn't get more of the same lot, only accomplished that once in 40 yrs. Bought 5 boxes of various stuff for 6.5cm when I first bought one, 3 were junk, one at limit of passable, one good. Bought a box for 338WM, shot really good, but, 200fps less than box statement, eneded up attaining 100fps better than box with same bullet by reloading. I bought a 450-400NE on a whim in 2011, 90.00/box, loaded those for 45.00/box, 150.00/box for factory now. Reloding also gave me a chance to meet a lot of good people at the range, get into disciplines I never would have bothered with otherwise.
 
So I got all my reloading gear. My first time out testing, near the end of the outing I had a round with no powder...DOH! Luckily there was a gunsmith there and he got it out with a rod he keeps with him. Anyway I have already made some mistakes.....surprise. I have found a load (41.1 H4350 with 140 ELDMs, Norma brass, and Fed 210 primers) that will shoot .949 " for 10 rounds at 100 yards and .45" with 3 rounds. I was able to shoot in the .3"s with Berger factory loaded hybrids, for 3 rounds, so I have some work to do. Next mistake...I loaded the rounds at 2.825 COAL and realize I should have had them much longer because the distance to the lands is about 60-70 thousands away. Do I start adding length .005" at a time or do I need to start over with charge weight testing?
 
@Tomiboy I haven't been following all the replies in your thread, so I may be speaking out of turn.

Are you feeding from a magazine? If so you may not have a lot of flexibility to seat deeper and still magazine feed. If your rifle uses AICS magazines you could get more flexibility using something like the MDT metal binderless magazines, although you may need to notch the action feed ramp to clear bullet tips.
 
our F-class is two 20 shot groups on target with some sighters before the 1st and two sighters before the second. I will not be hunting. Competition only. As soon as I burn this barrel out I'll move to a heavier bull barrel and longer. I think reloading will be fun unless I can't find a load that will beat the factory loads
Buy a quality barrel. I shudder at the current cost for barrel and chambering.
 
Even Erik got this one right.

Barrel, bullets and brass. I do not know of any quality barrel that does not shoot Berger bullets well out of Lapua brass. Get this right and you'll load ammo that is better than factory.

Have to admit though, the Berger Match grade cartridges are pretty good. I shudder to think how much they cost.
 
Give yourself some time to learn the ropes.
Unless an expert mentor is guiding you with every little detail, don't expect to jump before you crawl or walk.

Before you try and throw more changes into your mix, try to stabilize on your sizing techniques, priming technique, and powder charge. When that is stable and your group size is stable, then very carefully try to see if your neck tension causes any variation before you attempt to play the seating depth game.

ETA: eventually, mature brass hardens with pressure cycles. Not sure if you are annealing your necks or not, but expect to feel seating forces change as your brass gets cycles unless you are annealing. Don't take on annealing till you are more experienced and ready for it. It isn't mandatory.

To understand what is meant by stability in the above paragraph, you have to "keep score" over many matches in different weather conditions, and get several cycles under your belt.

It takes attention to detail, a sensitivity to detect problems or inadvertent changes, discipline and experience, before you will be able to even notice if things like seating depth changes make a difference.

If it takes about five or six thousand rounds to train a kid to the level where they start winning matches, it takes a significant part of that time for their loading techniques to get to the level where they have good control over small changes. Even then, if they have been guided there by expert mentors, they are certainly not considered experts at load development or internal ballistics.

In other words, when an expert loader tests the difference between Norma brass and Lapua brass, and the shooting is done by a High Master, we might be able to call a difference due to the brass characteristics. When that test is run by the average bear, it is noise.

My advice: Use the Norma brass you have in your hands now, and learn to inspect and track it while you get experience and the brass accumulates cycles. You will soon run out of something and learn how hard it is to just "keep things the same" without even trying to make changes.

Some folks get a lot of fun out of experimenting. Nothing wrong with getting some Lapua brass, but to answer the question above you don't need to if you don't have the bandwidth to add those logistics.

You can always fall back on side-by-side testing of your best against that factory load as a measure of merit. Once you get the hang of loading/shooting to the level where you are good enough to spot errors and have learned what batch changes can do to your tuning, you will know you are ready to visit with making more changes. Nothing wrong with Norma brass that is filtered for defects and well prepped.

Enjoy the journey. There is something to tying your own flies and loading your own ammo that scratches a different itch than just buying those. But, when there is music playing, it is time to dance and if shooting factory ammo or fishing with a store bought fly means jumping into the game or sitting on the porch, I vote for jumping into the game. Carpe Diem!
 
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While you can get started for 500, you are going to be doing everything by hand and have lots of stuff you will upgrade. Spend a little more and it will be more pleasant, faster, and cheaper in the long run.
Forester coax, case prep center, electric trimmer, calipers, chargemaster link, hornady comparator, good funnel, a trickler, chronograph, thats already over 1k, but it will be worth it.

There is some really good factory ammo these days. To beat it you need good components and some attention to detail. I have been loading a couple years. I can consistently beat hornady match 6mm creed using the brass from the factory ammo and 108 eldm. For 223 I always shot Fiocchi vmax in 50 rd boxes. In my AR and tikka varmint I easily beat that with almost no effort, but the key was better brass. I loaded that Fiocchi brass and couldn't do much better than factory ammo. Switched to starline and immediately cut es, sd, and groups by more than half.
 
I'm getting ready to buy a complete reloading set up for my 6.5 Tikka. I haven't reloaded in over 40 years. I have been shooting factory ammo up to now. My CTR 24" shoots very well with factory Norma Golden Target 130s, Berger 140 hybrids and Sig Elite 140s (all I've tried). With 3 shot groups it is always sub-MOA with any of them at 100 and 200. I have just started shooting F-class at 600 and 1000 with the Norma and I would like to do well. How difficult will it be to make better ammo than factory? I anticipate on spending over $1,000 to get set up to reload, plus components. I have plenty of 1X brass. I got some Federal 210 LRPs recently. Was planning on using the Norma brass, Fed 210 LRPs with H4350 powder and try some Berger Hybrid bullets 130 & 140, and some SMK 142s. It will be very disappointing to not be able to make better ammo than factory. I could buy quite a bit of ammo for that $1000+!
Thanks!
Tom
I've only had one factory load I could never equal or better. That was Federals 150gr. TBBC in 7mm STW.
 
I ran out of ELDMs so I bought 500 Berger 140 HTs. Using the same load that worked with my ELDMs I shot (1) 3 shot group of each depth from .075", .060", .045", .030" and 015" off the lands. (the ELDMs shot best at .077" OTLs!!) The .045" OTLs was .236" C-C and the .015 OTL was .1" !! Probably just random luck. (The other (3) shot in the mid .5"s) I just loaded up 5 more of the .045" OTLs and the .015 OTLs to see if one of them can do well again. My best group with factory ammo was .3" with Berger loaded ammo.
A pic of my little loading area:
 

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Years ago got factory loads to get the brass, have Never had any barrel,.204 Ruger,,223 Remington, 6 Creedmoor, 6.5/284, 6MM BRA, that Factory loads were Better,Always got better groups w/ Reloads.
 

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